Jenny (00:29)
If pricing, flower math, and real business tactics around profitability are kind of a thorn in your side, you have to listen to this interview I did with Alison Ellis of realflowerbusiness.com. She is the creator of Flower Math and author of Falling into Flowers, which is sort of like a step-by-step guide to today's modern wedding business. Now, Alison Ellis is quite frankly the pricing guru of
floral design and weddings and floral business. She is a floral designer herself and also an educator who teaches florists around the world how to increase their income and find more freedom in their business with honest, actionable strategies and courses. So she really understands the challenges that floropreneurs face when growing a business on their own. And she has actually had over 10,000 florists
enroll in some of her online business courses. She does private group coaching and she has free resources as well.
But Allison speaks my love language of all things business. And so I'm really excited for you to hear her talk about it today. So without further ado, let's dive on into our conversation.
Jenny (01:46)
welcome, Allison. I'm really excited to have you on the show because you are like the pricing guru, correct? When it comes to flowers and weddings and floral design, you're like the pricing go-to person, right?
Alison Ellis (02:00)
Well, I'd like to think so, Jenny, so thanks, yes.
Jenny (02:04)
And this is I was telling you before we hopped on that pricing is a question that I get asked constantly all the time. And so I'm really thankful that you're able to join me on the show so we can kind of dive into some of the pricing stuff and some of other things around floral businesses. So, ⁓ Kym, I just start off with a question of what do you think the most common pricing mistakes are that farmers or farmer florists make?
that sort of like kill their profit or hurt their profits.
Alison Ellis (02:37)
really good one. You know, there's a few things that are very common, like overfilling, right? We're putting too many stems in, not accounting for them. But specifically for flower farmers, I think it comes down to not...
really including that labor time, not really accounting for your design time, having maybe a little mental block that you're not a real florist. I'm doing air quotes here, right? That I'm not a real florist so I can't charge the same even though that's not true. And then, you know, maybe this is turning into multiple mistakes here, but not being prepared for what if
you do have to buy flowers in for some reason. If you take a wedding order and you have the best intentions, you're going to fill it, you know that lisianthus is going to be ready. Yeah, that's a joke for the flower farmers out there, right? Because you don't know something delayed it. Gosh forbid there's a frost, right? Something happens where there's a failure. You still may need to buy in some flowers. So you need to be able to account for if that were the case.
Jenny (03:34)
Yeah, right.
Alison Ellis (03:52)
and you had to charge the retail price because you have to buy it wholesale instead of growing it yourself. What does that cost you? So be prepared, right? Like those would be the things you're overstuffing it, underestimating the actual value of the time, and then not really keeping in mind, what if I did have to buy this? What would it cost then?
Jenny (04:18)
Yeah, those are all great ones. Now, in terms of labor and design time and basically just assigning a value to their time, I see people struggle with this as well as they're like, yeah, sure, okay, I worked like four hours on floral design or whatever for this wedding, let's just say for an example, or a farmer's market, whatever it is. But how do I?
Like, what do I charge for that? Like, do I charge $20 an hour, $100 an hour? Like, how do you determine what value to assign to an owner's time when they're doing things like that?
Alison Ellis (04:53)
For me, this really comes down to knowing your own numbers because for everybody that number is going to be different. If you have multiple employees, you need more per hour in order for you to pay yourself and your employees. If you are, it doesn't mean you should charge less if you work alone necessarily. It's just a matter of knowing what that number is for you.
because I like to be super straightforward. Years ago I started tracking that number for myself. How many hours did I work on this wedding? Starting with the consultation, right? Every... How long did it take me to go to my wholesale? Or how long did it take me to clean it up? All of it. And it was not falling below $50 an hour. And that was years ago. So, you know, you do your own math, figure out what you're making now. Figure out, is that enough? Do I need to raise that? Should it be more?
Or, wow, am I cruising through at 100 bucks an hour and that feels right for me? Because there are going to be some things where I'm making more money per hour. When I'm making centerpieces, I'm banging out those centerpieces. That is a profitable hour. Versus the time it takes me to hand select every flower for the wedding bouquets. The time it takes me to put them in the cooler very delicately.
the time I spend thinking, should I check on those bouquets and move them in the cooler because I don't want them in the same place for too long? So all of that time makes that something that it's still profitable, but there's more time and labor that goes into it. So, you know, all that said, I think it's a matter of knowing what it costs to run your business, how much you need to pay yourself each year. This is not, by the way, an afterthought.
How much do I need to pay myself? You know, that's the number one trick question I ask people apparently. You know? Well, how much do you want to make this year? well, you've never thought about that. And that happens all the time. Maybe out of a lack of planning, maybe out of a fear of naming it, maybe out of a hobby mindset where it's not a business yet.
But whatever the reason, that question can't be the last, it can't be like an aha moment when I'm in a coaching session with somebody and I say, hey, what would you like to pay yourself? You're like, wow, that's a great question. Right, it is a great question, but I'm not a genius for asking it.
So, you know, just to be, you know, rounding out your question there, the answer to your question there, the number is going to vary for everybody. It's going to depend on what you need to make. But that's a number you need to define for yourself at some point. If this is supplemental income, you need to maybe make less. If this is a job you're transitioning into, how much income do you need to replace? Is that reasonable to do? Right?
and then how many hours, how many gigs, and then you can start to figure out all the other pieces. But it starts with, what do really want this business to give me? And then how do you make that happen so that it's as profitable as it can be per hour for yourself?
Jenny (08:22)
Yes, I love that answer. in our business programs, that's the first thing that we bring people through is you need to identify how much you want to pay yourself, how much you want to make, what you need to get out of this business. And that's the starting point of figuring all this other stuff out. So I'm really glad that you said that because it's so important. I think in our industry specifically, people are just so
passionate about flowers and they love working with them and they love their clients and the work. And so it is often an afterthought, but you're not going to be in business for very long if that's not like the thing that you're focused on. So yeah, I love that. Now I want to go back to something else you said is about overfilling and over stuffing. I always operate, like I don't do weddings anymore.
Alison Ellis (09:08)
Yeah.
Jenny (09:14)
It's not my thing. I'm not a floral designer. I don't have a knack for that or really an interest in it. So I make market bouquets. We sell at the farmer's market and we make recipes for everything and we calculate what the value is of every flower going in and then we stick to those recipes. But I know when you're doing floral design and even sometimes I guess if you're doing market bouquets too, know,
Alison Ellis (09:32)
Yes.
Jenny (09:40)
you might make a recipe and then you look at it and you're like, well, it could use a little another sprig of this or another stem of that. And then you end up going down like this landslide. so tell me how that happens with florists and farmer florists and like what, what you can do about it to sort of avoid that, but still feel good about what you're putting out into the world and feeling really good about your design.
Alison Ellis (10:03)
Yeah, because that is what it comes down to. It's this balance between making the profit as the business and also providing the value to the customer so that they don't go, well, this looks small or this isn't what I expected. We really do need to do both. And it's that latter part, the I don't want the customer to be disappointed piece that causes all this overfilling.
And so to me, comes down to slowing down, really backing up, whether you're the owner, whether you're the lead designer, whether you are one of many designers at a busy shop, everybody needs to understand what the cost of each stem is and how it adds up over time. So if you have, you know, I've worked in various flower shops of various sizes and
you know, would say the busiest one we had probably eight designers at a time, right? So maybe not everybody worked every single day, but you had eight designers that would be coming in and out. If all eight of those designers all week long are putting one extra Snapdragon or, you know, I'll use the Lizanthus because it's a more expensive purse stem, you know,
whatever your example is, whatever you're growing or whatever you're selling, one extra anemone, one extra anonculus that hasn't been paid for in every single arrangement, add that up over the cost of the day, the week, the month. That's what you're giving away for free to customers.
You know, I used to, I'm from New Jersey originally. I live in Vermont long enough to say I'm a Vermonter, but I am from New Jersey. So I grew up, of course, going to the mall, right? We had these big bulk candy shops, you know? I don't know if you have been ⁓ a patron of one of these places, but basically you end up with like $800 worth of candy in a bag on a scale by the time you're done. But, right, but.
Jenny (12:13)
Yes. ⁓
Alison Ellis (12:15)
Just to use that as an example, like no one ever gave me extra little peach rings for free Because it seemed expensive when I put that candy on the scale and trust me it did seem expensive when I put the candy on the scale, right? So this is the thing we have to keep in mind You can't be given away free candy at the candy shop Just like you can't be giving away free flowers from your flower stand
from your market bouquets, from your wedding designs. Each stem has a value. And if you don't see it that way, then how can you be surprised if your customers don't see it that way and they're looking for a deal? Because you yourself are not embodying the idea that each stem has a value, that it's not just about the cost of the stem, it's also about the way I care for it, the way I package it, the way I bring it to you. So, you know, that's the mindset that
needs to be embraced. I often talk about my best worst boss because he really was the best and the worst. The best of times and the worst of times. one of the things that he trained us, you know, let me just stop there, that sentence, he trained us, period. That's what's missing. Okay. Training us. So, but we were trained about how much this stem
Jenny (13:34)
Mmm.
Alison Ellis (13:43)
costs that when you do this, when everybody does this, this is the money that's going out of the shop and why this is a problem because when everybody gets on board it helps make it easier. When everybody gets on board then what's going out is consistent. So one week the bouquet isn't one size and the next week it's a different size. Or if that is the case we have language around how to talk about it.
these bouquets are smaller than last week's. yeah, well that's because we had, ⁓ I don't I want to say saponaria. Am I making that up? That's like a filler, right? I think there's like a filler. ⁓ You know, that one had a filler in it this week. It's all premium blooms. So these are going to cost a little bit more and be smaller, but they're both going to last you a week or whatever it is. So how do we frame it where we ourselves understand the value so that we can
Express it.
Jenny (14:42)
Yes. Now, I love what you said about the training piece of it because that's missing for so many people who have teams. even like I find, even though I feel like I'm very structured and very good about this stuff, I sometimes find if I'm doing it, I will just like carelessly be like, well, we have a couple extra stems of this. We'll just throw them in. No worries. But after I train my employees on like
the value of flowers, how to make recipes, like all the pricing around it. And they are doing like recipe design and stuff now. They're like, no, Jenny, like that, that's that we can't do that. And I'm like, I know, I know I taught you that. And now we're always like reminding each other about it. And it's great because while you were talking, I just did like some really quick math, but it seems harmless to just like give one extra stem every like bouquet you're making. But if that stem has a two dollar value,
and you make, let's just say, 50 bouquets a week, over the course of a growing season, that's $3,500. That's huge. And we're just talking about one extra sum that you're like, no big deal. And so, yeah, I think it all comes down to processes and systems is what I'm hearing from you too.
Alison Ellis (16:01)
big time and and also just to reflect back what you said it's about our self accountability because so many people work alone and so there is no one to train and so it's easy to go I just do this this is just what I do I've developed this shortcut and this is how I price things but then you just did the math right this one and you're saying two dollars
What about the stems that you should be charging $5 for? So when we really start to add that up, what if you're an actual, you have a CSA and you're giving it away at the CSA, you're giving it away at the market, you're giving, so depending on how many outlets you have, you may be giving away that $3,500 that you mentioned many times over.
Jenny (16:31)
Mm-hmm.
Alison Ellis (16:55)
through all the different income streams that should be coming into your business, but instead you're giving away free candy, right? So we have to hold ourselves accountable and that is the hardest part. And so you did something smart, you have a team and then the team knows what to do. And so now you have accountability partners. Sometimes we don't have a partner, it's just you. And that's why you need those systems.
Like I teach my flower math course, have, you know, follow the formulas, right? You don't have to make it up or consider it. don't have to ponder, what should I charge? This is what I do. Here's my markup. Here's my design fee. This is what I do. And then I know I'm going to make a profit because I'm not going to overbuy because it's both sides.
Jenny (17:31)
Hmm.
Exactly. love that. I love that you use those systems and stuff. And yes, employees will be the best accountability you could ever possibly have. Like unknowingly, you're like, I need to get my stuff together because I have people to lean. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Now, you said something before.
Alison Ellis (17:56)
Right? Employees and children, right? They're your mirror. You're like, ah, no, you're doing what I do. Do what I say, not what I do. Mm-hmm.
Jenny (18:10)
That sometimes like if a bouquet from week to week sort of like same value bouquet is maybe bigger one week, smaller the next week. How do you set pricing that educates clients on value and not just cost? And it doesn't have to be specifically for that situation, but you know, with like wedding designs, like the prices can vary so much. So how do you set pricing that educates your clients on that?
Alison Ellis (18:39)
You know, I'm always cautious about educating the client because do I want to be educated when I'm a customer? Sometimes, you know, and sometimes I just I just want to have a feeling, right? We just want to have a feeling. whether it's a wedding or it's the market bouquet that every week is the same price, but might be a different size. Or maybe it's a higher price and it's smaller this week, you know.
It's really about how we're connecting with the client, which might sound like I'm evading this pricing question a little bit, but I think it's an important piece because we can overcome pricing hurdles, obstacles, objections when our value is clear and felt. So I'm going to make an assumption, right, that you have customers who come multiple weeks to your market.
And they know that the flowers are high quality, they're gonna last, they're beautiful, they're fragrant, whatever it is that they particularly respond to. It might be one of those things, it might be all of those things. You have the most colorful bouquets, you have the most long lasting, whatever your thing is. And so even if the bouquet is a different size or it's not their favorite color this week, they're still buying it from you for all of the other reasons. And that's what we need to...
try to focus on. We can't convince somebody that, I mean look, I just bought flowers last week for something, for family event, so I wasn't charging retail. But when I did the math, I went, my goodness, I would really be having to charge for these small arrangements that I made. ⁓ So here's where you have to go, okay, do I adjust my recipe? So that it,
couldn't have as many flowers and so then that makes it more affordable. Or do I have to adjust the way I'm selling it? Do I have to be really clear? These are the fresh, the first ranunculus of the season, the freshest tulips, the, you know, just picked this today. What is the thing that makes this different, unique, special worth that extra little bit?
Jenny (21:02)
Yeah, so like brand positioning almost like if you have a great reputation and you're known for doing great work and you have like, I know I see Flores talk all the time about like your portfolio, like you have a very specific portfolio with your artistic style and you're known for that like price.
Like the value that you provide to the world, the price doesn't really become as much of an issue.
Alison Ellis (21:33)
little
bit, you know, or it's at least it's not directly tied to the stem count. You know, because when I come to the market or I'm a part of your CSA and I get these flowers every week, you know, I don't join the CSA because I want to get the lowest price on flowers, you know. It's a different thing, right? And so that's where it's that's what the where the real juice is, you know, that we're not just
Jenny (21:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, not the customer.
Alison Ellis (22:02)
slinging stems, right? I mean, when we're doing weddings, we're slinging stems a little bit, you know, because it's one and done. You know, this customer is not coming back next week, much to my chagrin. I've got a couple of moms I worked with last year that I already miss, you know, like, wish you were getting married again this year. But lucky, I'm lucky to feel that way. But, you know, it does come down to that our value is not directly related to the stems.
Jenny (22:32)
Hmm.
Alison Ellis (22:33)
It is not a matter of this many stems equals this many dollars. What else did you do to it? What other care went into it? And what makes it special? And why do I want it from you? Because I could get stems like almost anywhere now, right? Depending on where you live, I could be at a grocery store, at a specialty grocery store, at a co-op.
I'm surprised how many flowers I see in the wintertime even here in Vermont sometimes. like, wow, I'm surprised how many flowers are at the co-op today. But why do they come to you? Why are you the ones? Or why, if you sell them at the co-op, why are yours the ones that they come in on Tuesday to get? Because they're that much of a draw. That's what we're looking for.
Jenny (23:27)
Yeah. Now we've been talking a lot about like, you know, systems and like recipes. And now I feel like we're kind of talking a little bit more about like this, the value. And I think so many people get involved with flowers because there is this like artistic draw to them. There's like this artistic creativity and some people just want to be creative with their flowers. But sometimes you have to balance that with like,
you know, the numbers, right? So how do you talk to people about balancing that artistic creativity with pricing discipline and like, you know, giving your clients what they're looking for.
Alison Ellis (24:11)
It is a balance because the truth is most, and I say this with deep love, most of us flower business owners are unbalanced, okay? We are not balanced. We are very heavily on the flower lover side and the business is sometimes really like, I could just, I made money, I don't know how much, but I know I made more than I spent.
Jenny (24:24)
Hahaha!
Alison Ellis (24:38)
And it's just kind of head down and good enough and I think I can, I think I can't. Whereas most successful businesses, forget about the industry, but a successful business has a plan, has some idea about what their actual pricing structure is before they start their business as opposed to...
I've been doing this for a decade and no one ever taught me how to price, which I've heard people say often, right? So, you know, the idea that they're in it alone, you know, a lot of other businesses, they don't approach it like, I'm the first person to ever open a jewelry store or the first person to ever, you know, have a restaurant. They know there are some models to follow and some things they need to do. There's also, you know,
inherent risk that comes when we start our business that maybe it won't work and so we need to have plans around all of these things but for the most part it just is like I'm gonna grow some flowers right I am gonna grow some flowers I'm gonna make some compost I am gonna do the things I've got these wood chips that are just waiting for me so no maybe that's just me but but you know
Jenny (26:00)
No, it's not.
Alison Ellis (26:03)
It takes more than that. And so that's where if we can sort of fill out the other side, right, to balance out. So we love the flowers. We're great at growing them. We're great at designing them, whatever it is. We might not even be great at growing them. We just love it, right? We just love doing it. Whatever the case may be, we need to also, if we expect it to pay any bills, we need to
strengthen that other side and build it up and say, okay, so what does, what is the plan? How does the money come in? What do we provide that's different? Why does this customer choose us over anybody else for this specific thing? Why am I the best person to do this? Which is so hard to do when you're brand new. You're like, I'm not, I'm actually, I'm nobody, right? But you still, we need to...
hype ourselves up, you know, we got to be in the mirror going, hey, you got this, you know what, you're brand new, but you're the best brand new grower in this town, you know, on your street. Whatever it is, you have to tell yourself. ⁓ And then it becomes a matter of...
We provide the value, it's not directly related to how many one, two, three, four, five stems. And like you said, it becomes part of our marketing, our branding, but it can't just start with, it can just start, let me back up, it can just start with your love of flowers. That is okay. We need to have something that sparks us. If you think too much about the business sometimes, that would stop you.
It would dampen the spark. So that's why your brain went, I'm going to ignore that for now and just focus on the growing. better to sooner rather than later get some sort of basic plan. It doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to have lots of numbers in it either, by the way. But what do you want to be known for? Why will people choose you? What could you do best?
Jenny (28:19)
Mm-hmm.
Alison Ellis (28:19)
⁓
You were talking about swats on one of your recent podcasts that I was listening to. You know, what are your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats so that you can find your lane? Because we can't just be growing flowers with nowhere to sell them and we can't just be making arrangements and buying flowers and not paying ourselves. Which happens, right?
Jenny (28:46)
more than you would think, unfortunately.
Alison Ellis (28:48)
way, way,
way. The people even that look like they're doing great on social media are not paying themselves sometimes. So don't believe the hype, Eyes on your own paper, focus on your own numbers, your own goals, what you're doing.
Jenny (29:01)
Yeah.
Yes, 100%. Those Instagram followers don't always directly translate into dollars in the bank. In fact, a lot of times it doesn't. Yeah.
Alison Ellis (29:18)
Yeah, most
of the time it doesn't. fact, you know, we there's there's always an ebb and flow to the way that social media is working or not working. And it can't be our goal to be well, I mean, at least my opinion is it can't be able to be Instagram famous if we want to run a real business. If you know what comes first, the real business is the piece we want to foster.
Jenny (29:47)
Yeah, like I just, I think about my business. We've never been Instagram famous. We've never focused on social media as like this big thing, but like we've always been a really successful profitable farm because we focus on numbers and pricing and we had that foundation. Like you're saying, like we knew which direction we were gonna go on and like that's what's most important. And then sure, if you wanna, you know, leverage social media to get clients and stuff later, go for it.
Alison Ellis (30:15)
Yeah.
Jenny (30:15)
and you know, that's some people's approach and that works for them. That's fine. But like you're saying, like this, what we're talking about today is like the foundation to have a business that actually works where you actually pay yourself and you can have that financial stability and feel safe and okay in your business. And, you know, we've been talking so much about pricing because you are the pricing guru, but like, I just really believe it is one of the biggest levers you can pull in business.
that makes or breaks the difference between whether you're profitable or not. So what do you think that farmers and farmer forests ignore when it comes to like those metrics or profit or numbers? What do you think that there's something that they should be paying more attention to?
Alison Ellis (31:03)
Number one, always profit margin. People are so focused on setting a spending goal. Well, I spend 30 % or whatever it is. But like back to the recipes, if we have tight recipes, if we're not over buying, if you're not over filling, then your margin can be higher if you don't
Commit to spending a certain amount. I want to slow that down and say it again because I think It's so important to not miss you don't have to set a Spending goal you want to set a profit goal How much profit do you need to make to make this event worth it to make the market worth it to make whatever it is you're doing worth it so that You're able to pay yourself pay your bills and go on with your business because if we're
focused on how much we're spending all the time. well, I spend, I can spend. I have more to spend. You don't, right? You don't owe it to the customer to spend a certain amount. But if we are not focused on that profit goal, that is where, that's the number one piece. That's the missing piece. Every wedding I do, I calculate my profit margin. Every event,
If you have a flower shop, can do it on what you sold during the week. Again, with your farm, your CSA, your farm stand, any place, any accounts that you have, how much did you sell that week? How much did it cost you to sell it? And focus on that number and always making that number the number that you're looking to increase or maintain.
I oftentimes will talk, like I do one-on-one coaching. I'll talk to farmer flours sometimes and say, you know what I want to do? I want to like increase my sales and it'll be this like big number. And I'm like, okay, that's cool. How much is it going to write? How many more people do you need in order for that? Because if now you're going to increase your sales by, let's just say it's a hundred thousand dollars. Well, it's going to cost you how much in people.
Jenny (33:12)
What?
Alison Ellis (33:27)
to do that and then how much profit is left, you'd be better not selling $100,000, staying small like you are, or at least knowing, hey, I have to sell $100,000 more just to barely pay this employee and a couple of other expenses. I'm not gonna make a ton, but it's still in line with my goals. At least know that.
Jenny (33:53)
I love that. I think profit margin is just like we know it on all of our products and our services, know, our sales outlets and stuff. And it's the thing that makes you a business. this is if you don't want to pay attention to this, like just it can be a hobby and that's okay. But like this is the thing you need to be focused on. Now, one question I get a lot is when we're helping people figure out their cost of production and their margins, they're like, well,
Alison Ellis (34:14)
way.
Jenny (34:23)
What profit margins should I be shooting for? Is there a magic number? ⁓ What do you think about that question?
Alison Ellis (34:31)
Yeah, I do think there's a magic number. when it comes to retail floristry, so I'm not growing the flowers, I'm buying them. I want the floor on your profit margin to be 70%. Now that's just on your cost of flowers and supplies. All of your other profit, excuse me, all of your other expenses get paid from that profit, right?
That's why that profit needs to be as big as possible. So sometimes I do a wedding and there's a 78 % profit. Sometimes it's 83%. Sometimes it's 73. But I don't want it to fall below 70 because I have to pay myself and all my other expenses from that. So that's my floor suggestion. And for a farmer florist, I don't know the exact right number. What are your thoughts on that?
Jenny (35:30)
So just to clarify, you're saying that when you like buy in flowers and you're reselling them, from the cost of that, whatever you bought in, you need to earn 70 % profit on whatever you sell that for.
Alison Ellis (35:32)
Yeah.
That should be the goal, the bottom line. So we're not falling below that. If you can make more, I'm all for it, but we don't want to make less. So the way I like to talk about that, because then people will say, well, does this include sales tax? No. Does this include all of my rent? No. That's why, like, this is the one number that can be more universal across the board.
Jenny (35:52)
Go for it.
Alison Ellis (36:13)
all of, whether you have rent, employees, all of that, those numbers are all variable. I don't know what those are for you. I am not psychic. But what I do know is if you're following recipes, like you mentioned, and like I preach in my flower math course, if you follow recipes and you keep your orders in check with those recipes, it should not be a problem to reach 70 % or more on what you spent on flowers and supplies.
So that's your containers, your tape, your pins, any fancy boxes that you have, anything, any supplies are also included there. the things that you buy, you know, this is the way I like to think about it to simplify it. The things that you sell, what it takes, the raw materials you need to make at least 70 % off of because everything else is paid out of that profit. So for your business, maybe you need to make 80%.
but we don't wanna make less. If you're like, oh, I'm at 65, that's close. Nope, not close enough. We need you to go up five. We need you to aim for a little bit more.
Jenny (37:24)
Yeah. So when like in our program, we take people through this process of crop costing. So we look at literally every single expense that goes into like producing, let's just say like one bunch of dahlias, for example. And so we're like very, very closely looking at.
Alison Ellis (37:40)
Yes.
Jenny (37:45)
all of the labor it takes to grow it, all of the supplies and materials, the infrastructure, so like greenhouses, barns, equipment that you're using, plus like every single rubber band, every single like tea bag or you know, whatever hydration, whatever solution you're using, the buckets, like people think that it's insane to go into that level of detail, but I think it's
absolutely necessary. And that's what exactly what I'm hearing from you is with your process, like it all has to be taken into account. It all has to be you have to make a profit on all of it. Otherwise, you're going to go out of business.
Alison Ellis (38:22)
you have to.
And so like for me, because I don't grow it, I don't have all those calculations. I just have what I paid. And so.
Jenny (38:31)
Yes. Yep, which is so
much simpler, trust me. But still.
Alison Ellis (38:35)
I know. But that's where,
you know, the grower, the flower farmer doesn't provide a lesser quality, lesser value product just because they didn't pay somebody to grow it and ship it to them. You know, this is why I really like to try to highly encourage flower farmers to think and price like a retail florist.
Jenny (39:03)
But
because they are. I'm sorry, but we are. Yes, because what I heard this from somebody a million years ago, it might have been Jenny Love or somebody at the ASCFG when I first got into flowers, but they're like, if you are selling to direct to consumer to anybody, whether it's a farmer's market, a farm stand, if you're doing weddings, you need to think about them almost as separate companies.
Alison Ellis (39:05)
Right? Thank you.
Jenny (39:30)
your farm grows the flowers and you almost need to think about it that you're selling those flowers to the quote unquote floral design company. like regardless, if you're selling direct to consumer, you are a florist. I mean, I know we don't use that term a lot if you're a flower farmer and you're not doing like floral design and weddings, but we are. So we need to think about.
Alison Ellis (39:44)
Yes.
I love that
way of thinking because it makes sense to me the way, because I always think of myself as, it's funny, but I always thought of myself as not being good at math. And then I realized at a certain point in my career, my God, people don't know how to price their flowers. That was the only math I was good at. So what you're saying fits my math understanding, right, of
Jenny (40:04)
I'm not either.
Alison Ellis (40:19)
here's what the cost of this raw material is, and now you mark it up from here. We're marking it up in terms of the actual flower itself, we're marking it up in terms of our design fee, we're marking it up in terms of, you know, if there's containers or additional supplies, we're marking it up with the delivery and the installation, all of that is going into this final piece.
Jenny (40:46)
Yes, I recently had a student who said this to me. They had found their break even prices through our program and they said, it feels unfair for me to add a markup on this. And I was like, but it's your break even price, which means you are not earning a single penny on that. And so,
Alison Ellis (41:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jenny (41:12)
There's this like mindset piece too where I think people feel, I don't know, they feel like guilty or like uncomfortable or something. Yeah.
Alison Ellis (41:18)
Yes. Guilty. You're right. You've named
it. Guilty. They do. Yes. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I'm just so emphatically shaking my head. Yes.
Jenny (41:24)
No.
So what would you say to somebody like that who is like, feel like icky adding markup on markup on markup when in reality, this is literally what you have to do to have a business? Because they're not just paying, like you've been saying, you're not just paying for the Ramatills for the flowers, you're also paying for your general liability insurance and your rent or your lease and all this other stuff.
Alison Ellis (41:55)
Absolutely.
You know, I mean, what would I say to people who feel guilty? would say, stop it, stop it, stop it. What? Just stop it, stop it. You know, this is again where I go, wow, you know, I didn't realize how lucky I was when my best worst boss taught me about pricing because so many people work at flower shops.
I mean, I've literally had people tell me, I worked at a flower shop for 20 years and no one ever explained to me how we price things, which blew my mind because I was very transparent. Here's how we do it. This is why it matters. Right. So to me, it is, I realized I was lucky that I don't have to question it or feel guilty. I was just taught this is how you do it. So that's my answer to people now is just
this is just how you do it. So you don't have to feel guilty to the person who goes, well, this is my break even point. So I feel, feel bad charging more. Well, do you feel bad needing to eat groceries? Because if you're charging your break even point, you don't have money for groceries. So what's your stance on that? You know, does somebody who says, well, I feel bad charging a markup. Well, you know, how much do you think your shoes?
actually cost in raw materials versus what even, you know, your very reputable company you love like a Patagonia, right? I feel good about shopping with this company. I buy high quality gear. Okay, they're not marking that up. Like, what? This is, this is where that is this a hobby or is it a business? Are you functioning in the same
world that we are where everybody is charging more than it costs. There's no one like, you know what? I just made these fresh donuts and this is what they cost me and that's exactly how much I want you to give me. No, no, right? I've put time in, I've put energy, it actually costs more than that. Because there's always something else. Because you know what? While I was doing this, while I was making this bouquet for you, I was not in here making dinner for my family.
There's another cost that's completely unseen to anybody but me and my child who's making his own box of macaroni and cheese. Just kidding. I'm probably ordering pizza. No, but you know, it's the thing where when somebody feels guilty, that's just back to the imbalance of I do this because I love it.
This is so fun for me. ⁓ how fun is it when it's April and it's raining and you're outside, you know, and you're shoveling and moving things and your back is aching. Do you want to just break even or do you want to get paid for that time?
Jenny (45:05)
No markup means you're working for free. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing your point of view on that with me.
Alison Ellis (45:07)
You got it.
Jenny (45:16)
⁓ Now, you have a lot of systems and tools that you use around pricing and profitability. Are there any in particular that have dramatically improved clarity or success for you and your clients? there anything in particular you highly recommend somebody just figures out right away or at least learns from somebody like you before they dive in to, yeah.
Alison Ellis (45:45)
That's super good question. You know, I, to me, it is the flower math stuff. Just knowing how to price. I used to go, well, you know, you probably need a business plan first, but you know what? No, you need to know how to price first. That's the first thing that I learned. That's when you understand how you make money and then you can make a business plan from there.
Because if this is how much my profit's gonna be, and this is how much I wanna pay myself, and this is how much my expenses are gonna be, I can start to add it up and say, well, this is how much I need to sell. And that's gonna equal how many market bouquets, how many CSA share members, how many weddings. I like to think of it like this, know, like how many buckets of income are coming in. So what are those income streams? ⁓ And so if we know how to price,
Jenny (46:26)
you
Alison Ellis (46:42)
To me, you know, that is it. ⁓ And then it's a matter of knowing how to sell, knowing how to present a proposal. Right, so I have some wedding templates that go through all those things. The proposal, the contract, the emails that we exchange back and forth when someone says, can you make a revision to this proposal before I book? Well, how do you respond to that? And what do you do when the deposit hasn't come?
How do you confirm the deposit or follow up on final payment? So there's a workflow basically that needs to go with that next. whether it's the workflow like that they would follow to actually get plants in the ground and growing or the workflow to book clients like what I do with my wedding templates, I think it's important to have...
an understanding of the steps that you follow in your business, because everything we're saying is looping back to everything else we said, back to the accountability, because those steps are what hold us accountable. You know, like I just got a booked a new client the other day, they sent a payment and my next step is clear. I know exactly what to do. I confirm it, I receive the deposit, I make them a special folder, so it is physically here.
which is my visual cue that they have paid me. I've got double checks on these sorts of things. So, but I as a single solo business person don't have to do that. I can be sure I'll remember. They're going to be in my online calendar. I'll just take this check and deposit it. No, that's not what we do when we have systems because when we work alone, it's so important to have systems for our people.
for our staff. But honestly, let's be honest, who's the worst employee of all? It's you, the owner. So we need those systems for ourselves because it's easy to not be accountable or to maybe have a bad day or to have a slump season or to have a busy week and you go, I'm not going to do that. But if you have a system, it makes it easier to
Jenny (48:45)
So true.
Alison Ellis (49:05)
Make your life easier now and later because you didn't go, ⁓ I'm going to slack because there's nobody here to tell me not to. Because by the way, there's nobody there to tell you not to.
Jenny (49:13)
Yeah.
There's not. When I first quit my old job to work full time for myself, my dad was so funny. He was like, I just could never do that. And I was like, what? You're like the hardest working person I know. You're amazing. Of course you could. And he's like, I would just sit on the couch and eat chips all day. I'm like, I mean, yes, that's tempting. like, but.
Alison Ellis (49:18)
The worst.
Jenny (49:43)
To his point, if you don't have those systems in place, sometimes you just end up doing stuff like that. It's so funny.
Alison Ellis (49:50)
Absolutely.
You got to know like what it is that you hold yourself accountable to in order to stay in integrity, in order to continue to build that brand. It's just too easy to go, I don't need to reply to that email right now. I don't need to set up that folder. I don't need to confirm the receipt of this deposit. I don't need to do any of those things. There is nobody who is going to say anything to me about it.
That's why I need to make sure I'm saying something to me about it first.
Jenny (50:24)
Yes, love that. So Allison, we've covered a lot and I want to wrap this up just by asking you one more question. And if there is anything else that you want to share that you think people just need to know about this kind of stuff, because you're so knowledgeable and I want to leave it open. So is there anything that you think people really need to know or something that you want to share with everyone?
Alison Ellis (50:49)
I think, you know, just in the, on the pricing and systems piece, you know, we're in a place right now where people seem to be very like sort of budget conscious. People are looking for pricing or looking for the lowest pricing or pushing back on pricing. And I just want to say to like, just stay true to yourself.
and the pricing that you know is, you know, earned and fair and in line with market value because we can't just try to appeal to that like least common denominator all the time and say, well, we want to just sell the cheapest thing. More sales that aren't profitable isn't more most of the time. Very, very.
very, very infrequently it will be. But you have to do a ton of volume, right? So we don't want to be the volume florist. We want to try to still stay in integrity with like the right aligned clients who are willing to pay us. And I know that that can seem like a big ask when people are feeling a little tight, but that's where we can meet the client where they are with.
adjusting our recipe, making it more affordable but still profitable where we can, or at least letting the client know like, totally get it and we really appreciate the position you're in and this is where we are and if they can choose it easily, we are a love match, right?
Jenny (52:29)
Yes, I love that. I think that there are, there's actually a lot of opportunity, I think, for serving some budget-conscious people in a profitable way. But you have to approach it the right way with everything we've talked about today. You don't have to be the most expensive, but it has to reflect the value you provide, and it has to be profitable. So I love that.
Alison Ellis (52:55)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jenny (52:58)
And I'm really glad
Alison Ellis (52:58)
Yes.
Jenny (52:58)
you brought that up because I think it's been on everyone's minds lately that like, yeah, the price of groceries is insane right now.
Alison Ellis (53:06)
It
is, it really is. And it's something where, you know, we have like a creep, you know, the price creep where it happens, it happens, and you go, this is normal. And then there's just this small, tiny creep and you go, whoa. And this, I hope that sounds great on your podcast. Wow. But I...
Jenny (53:19)
you
Yeah, I love it.
Alison Ellis (53:27)
I
think that, you know, we are feeling that too in weddings. I don't know exactly how much, but I'm sure you're feeling it at the farmers market too. We just have to be. So just, we have to just try to be resilient with that because, you know, this too shall pass, I hope, but it is what we're in right now. So just keep selling, keep showing up and just bringing people in to your web of awesomeness, as I like to say.
Jenny (53:56)
Yeah, exactly. And you know, I think the whole world just accepts like things are getting more expensive now. And like we raised our prices on a lot of things at the end of 2025 and like not a single person bad at it and I, because everything is getting more expensive. Our costs are going up. So we have to raise our prices. It's just the way it is in this world. And I think people know that and they understand. So yeah. Well, Alison, you are.
Alison Ellis (54:09)
Awesome.
Absolutely.
Jenny (54:22)
Literally a wealth of knowledge, the pricing guru. it's been such an honor to have you on the show and I have loved every second of this conversation. This is my jam. So can you please, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for coming. So can you please tell everyone where they can find you or they can follow you, learn more about you, your programs, all that good stuff.
Alison Ellis (54:33)
Thank you so much.
Best place to find me is right on my website at realflowerbusiness.com. You'll find all my stuff there. I've got a free Facebook group for florists and flower farmers. I've got all kinds of courses. ⁓ I've got lots of free stuff on my blog, tons of free tips. So yeah, you'll find lots of stuff there.
Jenny (55:02)
Yeah. And we'll put a link to it in the show notes of this episode. If everybody wants like a click easy button right over to our website. So yeah, thanks again for being here, Alison. It's been an honor.
Alison Ellis (55:12)
My pleasure. Thank you. Right back, Jenny.
Jenny (55:14)
Awesome, well, thanks everyone for being here for another episode of the Six Figure Flower Farming Podcast and we'll see you all next time.
Jenny (55:22)
Real quick, I made something special for you for being a loyal listener of the podcast. I've spent the last few years analyzing a lot of flower farmers' journeys, including my own, and created a profitable flower farm roadmap. It breaks the business growth into several different stages across five different areas of business, including product, production systems, marketing and sales, operations, and infrastructure. It shows the problems that emerge
at every level, what to focus on and what to ignore to move your business forward. All you do is answer a few quick questions and we will tell you exactly where you're at and what you need to do to grow. It's free, it's fast and it'll probably give you more clarity in five minutes than five more hours of research. So if that sounds helpful to you at all, go to trademarkfarmer.com forward slash roadmap. That's trademarkfarmer.com forward slash roadmap.
You can also grab this link in the show notes.
Jenny (56:23)
Don't forget we publish new episodes every Monday. So see you next week, same time, same place.
