Speaker 2 (00:28)
welcome back to the show, everyone. Today I'm talking to Diane Sukavati. Did I say that right, Diane? Sukavati. We're talking about a recent book that came out called Floral Standards, which was published by the Seattle Full Sail Growers Market. And Diane is just an amazing person to talk about this. And I'm excited to share the resource that we're going to be chatting about.
Speaker 1 (00:35)
to go back in.
Speaker 2 (00:53)
Just a little bit about Diane. She is the co-founder of Jell-O Mold Farm in Mount Vernon, Washington, with her husband Dennis Westfall. So she has been a flower farmer for nearly two decades and has helped establish the Seattle wholesale growers market in 2011. And she's also served on the cooperatives board since the very beginning. So you are talking to someone who really knows what they're doing today. And we're talking about a book called
floral standards, which is all about the standards of harvesting and caring for cut flowers. And I'm really excited about this because I have just about every flower book you could ever think of when it comes to flower harvesting, like post-harvest care, best practices, different kinds of farming. And this is probably the best one I have ever seen on the topic of actual flower production.
and post-harvest and growing. So I think that for either a new grower or a seasoned grower, this is a really amazing resource. And I'm not affiliated or sponsored or anything. I bought a copy of this book when I found out that it came out, because it just seemed like it was going to be really interesting. And I am just blown away at how amazing it is. So welcome, Diane, to the show. And thank you for being here to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (02:14)
⁓ thanks for that kind welcome. Really appreciate it. Glad the book is being useful. That makes me very happy.
Speaker 2 (02:21)
Yeah, it's been amazing. So some of the things that are in the book is, well, it's got a bunch of different flower crops with product spec sheets. How many flowers are in it again? There's like, ⁓ there's
Speaker 1 (02:33)
there's 232 separate like kind of entries and then but like some of them are kind of complex like grasses or you know like they'll have like a whole bunch of different species and and genuses. Genera. Anyway so it's a lot more than the 230 that we say but yes it's pretty comprehensive. Pretty comprehensive yes.
Speaker 2 (02:56)
at
It really is. And it's got post-harvest care, like grocery specs, standard bunch sizes, expected vase life, recommended varieties for cutting, packing standards, shipping notes, harvest stages information on like storage and transfer. Like it's just, it's like an encyclopedia, but like the best kind because there's a lot of pretty pictures in it as well. So can you tell everyone about your involvement with publishing this book?
Speaker 1 (03:27)
Yeah, so it's a, it had a very organic process in terms of how the book came about. ⁓ Originally, it's kind of a COVID baby. ⁓ We just had extra time on our hands and all that uncertainty about whether our businesses were going forward in the co-op and whatnot. And ⁓ so we had, at that time, we had gotten a grant to ⁓ hire some experts to help us with the USDA grant, to help us with, you know, kind of some of the, cause our co-op was a pretty big lift and ⁓
You know, probably we're just daredevils is why that co-op is as big as it is, it's just we needed to have facilities. And once we had facilities and we had a manager and then once we had all that overhead, then you need to pay for it. So you better get bigger. like that is kind of like one those children's books, you know, like I know an old lady, da, da, da, da, da. Or a young lady, an old lady who used to be a young lady. Anyway, But anyway, the...
What we did was we hired, we decided we had better and this was a project that had been going on for a while already. I had started it on our own farm. Most of us, I I think probably a lot of your listeners are the same way, we're generalists. We are not usually focused on just a few crops in volume. A lot of us grow like 20 feet of this and a hundred feet of that and maybe we expand what works.
you know, like our farm, I figure very kind of loosely that we maybe grow 80 crops on this farm. And I don't think we're unusual. So it's very hard even on your own farm to remember what the heck you were doing with these seasonal crops from one year to the next. And that doesn't get better. And if you have turnover in your staff, which most of our farms do because we're seasonal, then it's just really hard to keep your standards up. So we had, I started with a three by five card file and just been noting, you know, how many stems per bunch, what height, and just a note on harvest stage.
And then when we had that grant, decided we would channel some of that money to hiring Dr. John Dole from North Carolina State University to help us ⁓ vet what our work we were already doing, but also to help school us in how to go about really building a database of standards for our cooperative farmers so that the products would come in from different farms and look similar from the customer's perspective and have quality.
Because we figure, here's the deal with all the import games and all the stuff that goes on in the world. And you're this local person and you're not a huge farm and you don't have this corporate marketing machine behind you on your individual farm. In you need that co-op because you're tired enough growing and harvesting it. There's nobody to sell it to. So that's why the co-op idea is a good one. can bundle those marketing ⁓ efforts anyway. So we just ⁓ figured we better have.
quality because we cannot beat it on price because of the, you know, kind of the, they pay a different rate of labor and they have different standards in different parts of the world. So stuff can fly a couple of times around the world and still undersell us here. Our labor laws and standards. So it's like, okay, well, how are going to know the scheme? It's like, okay, we're going to, we're going to really focus on our seasonal crops and we're going to have spectacular quality. That's going to be the same coming in from different farms.
or comparable at least, comparable quality and bunch sizes and hefs and everything. So that was the challenge, which isn't a little thing. I mean, I think right now we maybe have 50, 60 farms that sell through the co-op through the year that are some are consignment growers, some are member owners. It's a big machine. And this book was something that, we started out originally during COVID, created PDFs, little internal use files that we'd share with the growers that needed them. ⁓
someone ⁓ at a board retreat, give the growers, wear the growers out, growers wear themselves out all summer harvesting, give us like a couple of weeks of rest and we're frisky again, and then comes a retreat and we have a strategic planning and somebody suggests, yeah, those PDF sheets really ought to be a book. We had to publish that. It's gonna be useful to a lot more than just our in-house people. And so just like kind of the quick leap, right? So we said, okay, let's do that. And I just...
I needed to spearhead it because I had spearheaded the original work and kind of had the connections to the farmers. So, you know, kind of it was maybe my baby in terms of concept to start with, but it certainly became all the farmer's baby in terms of contributing information. And we hired a graphic designer named Robin Avney, who was really talented at, you know, just making things pretty, but solving problems. So we kind of had the concept together. We worked up this concept that we would be like a cookbook.
So it needed to be really useful. You need to be able to open the page and see, okay, where's the ingredients for this? So you could see similar things like organizing this incredible, like this dizzying amount of information. And so a lot of the credit for how well that book works in terms of usefulness goes to Robin for her just her organizational, visual organization. And then you're talking about the photographs and it's like, well, the photos we knew, mean, those are.
A lot of those are come off of people's phones. ⁓ Photos are not professionally captured, most of them. Some are, but not much. Most of them are just ones that we did for in-house work in the co-op, for our marketing or whatever. they're not, it's not like we hired a photographer for the book. But what we needed was very accurate photos, which had a good enough quality that they wouldn't make our visually, that Galda farmers, I mean, we're all like artists too, right? So we have a certain visual standard. But the idea was,
you can say a lot of words about harvest stage, but one picture does the job. Yeah. Glance. then you could, then you can affirm what you looked at with the text. But I don't know about you and your experience with farmers, but starting with myself and working outward to my part, dear partner and everybody I know who's a farmer. don't know one who doesn't have what I call bunny rabbits jumping around their brain, right? was like, and so, and so it's like, okay, how do you.
How do you get people to actually read this linear text? And it's like, well, the picture helps. And then the other thing was like, let's not put anything in here that isn't useful. This is not a fluff package. This is not a, entertain people with poetry. It's, mean, the flowers are poetry themselves, but that's enough. ⁓ So it's all pretty concise and it's the information that you need to have. And we had to, we designed it so that it could be useful for person who's just learning on a new crop. Cause a lot of us, you know,
We also don't like to admit when we don't know something already, especially if we've been at it for a while, right? But there's so many crops. There's always something new to learn in the plant world, right? So like, well, let's say you want to pick up a new crop that you've never grown before. Even if you're an experienced grower, maybe you never knew grew nigella before or something, but you're doing it. know, so, or you have some that grew itself out there you want to harvest, you know? So then it's like, okay, well, hopefully this information, which was tried and true in the market. I mean, I think maybe.
Oh, probably I'll told about 30 different farms contributed to this books for sure. A core solid core of 10 people gave a lot of information. We figured there's probably over 200 years worth of growing knowledge captured in this book with a few real superstars in terms of people who shared information. And I really, that's one of the reasons the book doesn't have an author. It's published by the co-op and it's authored by the co-op. And the reason for that, even though I had a big hand in putting it together,
I would not feel comfortable being saying I'm the person who made this book. This really is a group effort. I can't even, I mean, it's kind of inspiring when you get people who are willing to share, who have the vision to understand that sharing that much of their hard-earned information is actually not just a kindness to the industry, but also super smart in terms of ⁓ marketing, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:06)
Yeah, I think that one of the reasons I love this book is because it is truly a professional resource. Like all the things that you were just saying about how it was set up and how the information is organized, how it's incredible how much information is in the book, but it's explained in such a concise, easy to read, consume manner.
And to me, it really is a professional resource for people who are looking to be a professional farmer. It's not just like a hobbyist resource. And I'm sure any hobbyist could pick this up and they would get a ton of information out of it. It would be very valuable. But I'm really thankful for it because it seems like so much of the information in the world, in the industry, you know, our small scale.
flower industry in the US particularly is geared towards a lot of like backyard gardeners, backyard hobbyists. And there really aren't a lot of professional resources out there. And to me, it's just so refreshing to see that. And I think it's really gonna help professionalize the industry as a whole. And so I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.
Speaker 1 (12:18)
⁓ I love hearing this copy. So like, this interesting, you know, because I got my start, you know, enough decades ago now that it's like, I'm not super into it. mean, there's just this whole, there's several like new waves of flower farmers that have come. There's a lot of interest now, you know, there's a whole bunch of collectives forming right now. And one of the things that I think is the most interesting of all about it is that ⁓ there's never been a lack of brains.
But when you're not sharing information, everyone's starting from scratch over and over again. And I think that every generation that comes along is a little bit more attuned to the idea of collaborating. think that's, mean, it's just, you know, it's kind of a me and mine, my little kingdom kind of old American mentality or, United States mentality that, and maybe even more of why, but it's like, it seems like it's less that way with each generation that comes along.
And it's also the resources are harder to come by. So perhaps those two things are like getting land, getting sharing, seems like a lot smarter way to do business all the time with costs rising. ⁓ But it also, ⁓ it's a super gratifying when I see like we have never lacked the brains to have an amazing professional rock the world industry of local farms.
I think our people mostly want to have, most people are making the choice that I run into, are making the choice that they don't want to rule the world. They would much rather have their one acre, even a quarter acre. Some people rocket on a quarter acre. And, know, or five acres or 20 acres, but not like, you know, franchises and, you know, I think that's not the way, but people can come to that, this industry for that. They come to this industry so they can be outside, work with, I mean, I, this is me, you know, I was just a little bit ahead of what's a much bigger ⁓ group of people now.
⁓ in terms of just timing, like just like I traveled in early February, I traveled Utah has a Utah Cup Flower Farm Association at a conference in Provo. And they brought me in as a speaker and I really loved that gig. I love communicating with those farmers. I was startled that they could pull 150 flower farmers that were from Utah. It was amazing. They're also super organized and really smart with business. they're like, they're women who like, you know, they'll
they can like, they're bright and they're together and they're organized. So I'm like, wow, I was very inspired when I spoke and then just had the conversations I was having. A of folks who formed, there's three different collectives forming up within that group. And one of them, just like five people just came out, flew out from Utah last week. And they were, we toured them around, showed them some farms. They spent a lot of time at the market. Their manager of their fledgling co-op was there. ⁓
really talking to some of our staff at the market, really like, are you doing this? what I saw with that was ⁓ that this book is the beginning of elevating our industry and not putting so many darn limits on our people are poor and they can't afford it and all that crap, all those mentality things. I would love for us to be ⁓ understanding that we're doing it our way.
that's a good part of American or, you know, it's like that independent spirit. We're doing it our way, but we're doing it together. And we're not going to keep wasting resources by dying with our secrets, you know? And I saw a lot of that and farmers have always been, plants people have always been generous about sharing. think the plants actually maybe take over our brains and make us share, know, there's that sort of like that botany of desire, like who's farming who, you know, kind of thing.
⁓ And I know that we all have a passion for I mean, I don't know anybody who's in this industry Because they just chose it out of a like cardboard box I mean, this is like gosh You have to work so hard to get to making a living doing this of what I've experienced anyway Just maybe you could work a little less hard Maybe we could share a little more and maybe we can help solve some of the problems of farming in general through this Wonderful channel that we have and like an example. So I don't know that's some of the thinking that answers
You're me. I'm meandering today, so you'll have to pull me back in. The rabbits are out grazing.
Speaker 2 (16:36)
Let's get all your rabbits back together. I think it's so true. ⁓
Speaker 1 (16:39)
you
Speaker 2 (16:46)
You know, the profession, like you said, the professionalization of our little cut flower industry, I think is what's going to lead to flower farming being a real career option for people. And I think that it already is because, so my background is I grew up in, I grew up on a farm. I grew up throwing hay every summer. I milked cows my whole life. I...
There was a lot of tobacco farming around where I was and there was so much messaging I received growing up as a child that farming was for people who wanted to work really hard and be poor their whole life. That I wanted to farm and both my parents told me, don't do it. You can have a hobby farm, but it's not worth it. It's way too risky. It's way too hard. You'll never make any money. It's so stressful. like, as I was going through college for agriculture,
everywhere people were talking about all these like, ⁓ this is kind of dark, you know, like suicide prevention programs for farmers. it's so real and that's all very real, but at some point I fell into flower farming and for some reason this industry, this section, sector of farming is different. There feels like there's just so much more opportunity ⁓ here.
Not that there's not in other sectors of agriculture, but I really found opportunity in small scale flower farming. And it's my hope that other people can find that as well. And I just think that books like Floral Standard are going to help with that. And I'm really thankful for it. Another factor of this is you mentioned this earlier, but you were saying that the Seattle Full Sail Growers Market really stands out based on quality.
And that is a huge differentiating factor from this global industry that we're involved in because we really are competing on a global scale. But the things that we can produce on our little tiny farms compared to like the big guys, it's literally a different product. And I think that this book, Floral Standards, can really help farmers stand out because I know things that I grow. Campanula is one thing that always comes to mind is that our campanula that we grow on our flower farm
is it is nothing like the stuff our florists get globally, like that they get imported in. It is literally a completely different product. It is so wildly different. And that is such a huge differentiating factor for us. So.
Speaker 1 (19:27)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot in what you just said. So yes, it is definitely different. I recently was interviewed by a woman who's writing an article for International Floral Magazine about, they wanted an article about the US cut flower industry. And she found her way to me through Deborah Frenzing from Slow Flower, people are linked to people. But it was interesting in that conversation because one of the things I got thinking about
talking with the author or the writer about was this idea that what went overseas, know, like people who are, people don't always realize that we used to have a pretty robust flower farming industry. And then it sort of quietly disappeared in the early 90s, you know, from say, you know, 70 % domestic to 20 % domestic or something roughly in that, and it's kind of hung there and maybe is coming back a little bit. ⁓
But that was a quiet little sellout of a pretty large industry. And I think it was because we didn't have anybody in the watch tower. You know, we didn't have an app, anybody advocating for our industry because it's so many, so scottishy. It's so many small scale people. but when I was just saying to her and just what you just said is just like the industry that's coming home is not the industry that left. Yeah. Which is really cool. There's a ton of creativity in that. Yeah. And it is something really different. And, know, you look at it and it's, it isn't apples to apples. It's like,
you've got most of those places where the commodity crops are grown for floral are equatorial. They're Africa and South America mostly. they're, ⁓ at to this, South America is mostly what comes to North America. ⁓ And ⁓ because there's that kind of higher elevation ⁓ tropical means that they can have some cool temperatures, but be able to grow the same thing completely year round, even day and night, ⁓ daylight.
even temperatures. And so you can just chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug, chug,
I've had great years and we've had hard years and we've gone up, then come back down and there's that's trend or trend driven. We're, we're, are, you know, I mean, we're risky because of weather and climate change makes that riskier. So I wouldn't want to, uh, candy coat that I, one of the things, you know, you'll find me as night going, yeah, farming is always hard work, but you're talking about how you grew up. I don't know how you grew up like that and not keep using your body that way. It just doesn't feel right to be, you don't feel alive.
I'm like 61, I just hiked the Grand Canyon Rim to Rim almost without training. I mean, one day, did it in one day. I a bit of willpower involved there. 13 hours, 25 miles down and back up. But I would say that the main thing about that was I'm really alive inside my body because I farm. So it's not, it's also kind of like being part of a troop or a theater group. It's like this way of life that once you are doing it, it's hard not to do it. I think that's a lot of why
⁓ Farmers have such an issue if they lose their land. They lose their identity when they lose their land. So I just wanted to throw that out there as just a, yes, this really is a time-honored profession. The best of this country is built on the work ethic of farmers. I don't I don't know how I'd sit down at a desk.
Speaker 2 (23:11)
Just kidding. Me neither. But that's the appeal to farming. And I think it's just so rewarding. I just look at the world today, and so much of the world is just so disconnected from agriculture and from farming. And it's so important because even though we don't eat flowers, most people eat three times a day. I think it's such a shame that so many people have that disconnect.
Just farming is just a magical, amazing way of life. Like you just said, you're able to hike the rim of the Grand Canyon. Like that's amazing, which I tried to do that when I was on my honeymoon when I was like 25 and I was super sick and was so disappointed that we couldn't do it. So I bet it was amazing. I'd love to go back someday and do that, but.
Speaker 1 (24:04)
We got a cool day too, which made it easier. yes, ⁓ just that, mean, so much of what we do is in partnership with nature, who is the one who decides. ⁓ know, roll with it, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:19)
It makes it so hard though to compete on a global scale when we have the seasonality to it. Like I think all the time about my business that if I could just do this 52 weeks a year, it would be so, I think that all the time, would be so much easier. Like cashflow would be so much more predictable. It would be so much easier. And maybe in some ways it wouldn't be. And I know that it is possible in my climate.
to sell flowers 52 weeks a year, but for me it just doesn't seem, like I've run the numbers and stuff and for me in the winter time it's not, doesn't really seem worth it. It's just not, it's always for me gonna be a seasonal business and so it's hard to compete on that global scale, but that's why we do have to have that differentiation of our product so we can compete at that.
Speaker 1 (25:13)
And well, sorry, you sparked a whole bunch of thoughts in my head. That's a lot of what the first of all, like our farm is we because you know, when you are instrumental in the starting a co-op, you know, the co-op has to grow and you need to be able to have room for other farmers to come in and sell. And of course, there's always too much product in the summer, like now, you know, around here, July and August are just like, and
Speaker 2 (25:17)
Let the rabbits go.
Speaker 1 (25:39)
in everybody, know, that's part of that's just natural cycle of things. But there are so many things you can grow in the shoulder seasons. And that's one of the things that Dennis and I did a while ago is we looked at it, we said, you know, you know, did just run some very simple math on some crops and realize that, you know, those perennial and woody crops are, you know, if you can take care of them, and it really depends on your site and your climate and everything else. But if they like you, and you've got a system for keeping the perennial weeds at bay, you know, they bring quality crop year after year, you can get out of the way of some of those main
gluts, know, like the zinnias, glut or whatever. so we just, these days we only grow two different annual crops and everything else we grow is like either an herbaceous perennial or mostly it's woody. And it's because, and it's sort of like, I think of it as like being the bass player in a band. We're not the flashiest and we're not showing up the most colorful in the summer. We're actually nailing, like we got, you know, we like nail March, April, May and September, October, November.
And then in the middle of June, July, August, yeah, we're active and we're hustling. And it's maybe we're doing even more volume than those other times, but we're really focused. And sometimes I think when you think of season extension, instead of thinking, I'm going to grow something in January, well, you normally grow it in September. What can I do in October? What can I do in March, if April's my month? And just because every time you get more to, it depends on where you're at across the continent, but every time you get to
⁓ more winter you've got my raw risk, like where we are in the Pacific Northwest, we're either going to get, ⁓ Arctic or we're going to get Hawaii. They'll meet here. You know, it's like, it was kind of like a game, you know, I like, yeah, maybe you overwintered your sweet peas in the unheated high tunnel one year, but good luck getting that to happen again, you know? And so, so you kind of want it. Like you were saying, just check your risk because it can be a lot, a lot more expensive to grow that same bunch in a different, you know, so it's like, it's a game.
But I think one of the things the book does is it has a section called recommended rice for cutting. So it helps people who are already growers move into different crops as well. And we've really focused a lot on foliage crops in there as well as the floral crops and textures and dry things. And just kind of really helping to, the more we can extend the season, the more people don't forget that we're around from one season to another. And that's also the beauty of selling collectively, I think, is that.
people grow different things and the customer stays engaged.
Speaker 2 (28:05)
Yeah, I know it's been, it's really a cornerstone of our business are those shoulder seasons. We earn over 60 % of our revenue just from the shoulder seasons. It's so important to us. And that's like, if you can figure that out, I mean, you know, every farm is different. I can't ever make a blanket statement about farming, but you know, it can really help.
Another thing about this book is that it's been a really great resource for my team members. So I talk about a lot in my courses and workshops about trying to make standardizations, standard operating procedures, have resources available for training your team. And it can be challenging with a seasonal business. You do have more turnover than you would if you had a business that operated the same 52 weeks a year. And so having some of those
standard operating procedures in place can be really helpful when you're bringing on new team members and when they're trying to learn the ropes and everything. But this book actually really sparked my team members' interest. And I wish that I had it when I first started creating those standard operating procedures, because we have a book of our own that has all that information of what stage to harvest this in, how many stems per bunch, X, Y, and Z. And then floral standards came along and
although we do things different, some things differently than it is in the book, the information in there is still so valuable. And I'll tell you, Diane, just twice in the past month have we picked it up and learned something from it. We first started, ⁓ we did a test. What am I trying to say here? Sorry, now the bunnies are coming out in my brain. ⁓
Speaker 1 (29:54)
Thank
Speaker 2 (29:58)
We did a trial of scoop scabiosa this year. We've never grown it before. And we were like, we have no idea when we should harvest this. Like I hadn't, I guess I had an idea from when I've different kinds of scabiosa. I feel like I'm a pretty intuitive person when it comes to growing, but we used your book or not your book, but the book to look up information on it. And we also did it with our still be that we literally hadn't harvested for two years because we weren't having good luck with it. And ⁓
we learned a bunch about different kinds of astilbe and different harvest stages that have to do with the different varieties. And I never realized that was a thing with it. So just in the past month, me and my team members have picked up that book and learned stuff from it together. And if I have a team member who's harvesting something that they don't remember how to harvest it from last year or they're brand new, they've been picking it up and reading it and getting some really great information on it. So just like,
as a resource for training your team, I think it's invaluable.
Speaker 1 (31:03)
That's so cool to hear. I would say, responding to what you just said, it was a huge labor to put the information for this book together. And by the way, we have a disclaimer on the front that just like, this is just a starting place. You might do something different. You might choose to do it different in the book, especially the heights and the numbers of stamps and a bunch and all of that. But at least it's a starting place. So you have somewhere from which to vary from, because people do things differently regionally and different kinds of businesses and whatever. ⁓
⁓ That's the most, I mean, we could not write this book and have it be valuable without having extreme granular detail. You can't just wave a blurry stick. mean, there is a lot of, there are a lot of resources out there that are inspiring for flower farming and no diss on that, but there are very few resources that like go to bat for that very little, like this particular. ⁓
crop needs to be in first this kind of solution for you know overnight then transfer it to this other kind of solution get it at this stage if you get it at this stage it's going to shatter on you in three days but if you get it just a little bit sooner you've got 10 days base life like every single and that's the beauty of the plant world is it's just so diverse that you can't there are no universal opera even like even within a genus it'd be like hydrangea it's like all different you know like which one okay how do you handle it so that
I just think the granular detail was beast pulled together. But I think that is why it is, it's the real, and I think that's why it's working. So I'm thrilled to hear it because I mean, it makes it worth all those COVID hours of anxiety and anxiety transferred into spreadsheets ⁓ and based trials. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:52)
Yeah. And that's one thing that you actually told me before is that this is not just like data, like hearsay that so-and-so who's grown hydrangeas for a long time does it this way or so-and-so does it that way. You guys did serious like base life tests and you did your own experiments and recorded all the data, didn't you? And just put all
Speaker 1 (33:14)
yeah, we did that, but we also did, you know, we are some of it's known in the trade, know, so we would verify, but we had, that was part of that grant that we had when we created those spreadsheets is Dr. John Dole vetted a lot of our information for us. And that was really gratifying because they have conducted like that, that program there at North Carolina State, they've had a lot of really brilliant grad students go through there. I mean, I think John's been there for a career. I mean, a lifetime career.
And it's just that they have done so much work with the specialty cut flower industry in terms of trial, vase trials particularly, and just they're the ones who first discovered this is so, think I'm fast, I'll probably be a scientist in another life. ⁓
Speaker 2 (33:57)
You are, in a way.
Speaker 1 (33:58)
I mean,
like this idea that certain flowers actually have a longer base life if you harvest them later in the day because they're absorbing carbohydrates from the sun and they've collected them. And a lot of them are that like the sun like like zinnias and that kind of those kind of flowers that Ruta Becky has. ⁓ Don't quote me on all of that, but that's the idea. And I was like, wow, I always thought that the flowers would all last longer if you cut them early in the morning. Not true.
how interesting, you they kind of understand that they're making a living too and they've got all about their ways. so, yeah, that was part of the North Carolina ⁓ work that, you know, kind of sparked my attention into focusing on more vase testing. And yeah, we did, we especially trialed ⁓ dahlias and garden roses because we didn't have information on them. So if we had information that was solid, we did not trial, but we, I mean, like we also did a bunch of shipping trials to see what could be shipped.
30 hours dry in a box. Because we grow so many things that aren't really available in the trade. We've invented them into the trade, because we're gardeners. And we have a part of the world that's been this very, I don't know, parts of Britain where you can just grow almost every, it's like, oh my goodness, can you put that in a vase? Okay, good. It's a little dangerous that way. lots of, lots of.
Applied science, know, which is, you know, I know what I might add it's similar to what you do, but crop costing or enterprise budgeting. Well, you may not need to shave it down to the pennies or the or the fractions of pennies, but it'd be really good to know 80 % accuracy on your crops. Right. It's kind of like, well, with that, with the black base testing, well, we don't have, we're using like distilled water. We were using regular tap water and you know, we had our temperatures in a place we could have to all our tests in the same room and the temperatures like within two degrees of 68 degrees Fahrenheit.
That's fine. You you get apples to apples that way. You know, kind of create stages. But you don't have to, if we were doing ⁓ lab science, it would be a couple notches ⁓ kind of more ⁓ dialed in. But our kind of trade doesn't really need that. We just need to know that this particular dahlia, ⁓ this load open after you pick it. So we'll pick it a little more open than this one that it's growing next to, which is
galloping out the gate and all the side shoots are going to open. And if you don't harvest it pretty tight, it's going to shatter in two days. So that kind of information was what we were able to gather. Yeah. And there's kind of a fearlessness about it. Like, wait, let's not be done before. Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (36:29)
I
think that even like some of the lab sciences, it doesn't really apply to the day-to-day stuff that we do. Like you said with crop costing, it's impossible to get it 100 % accurate every time because there's so many different variables that are completely out of your control.
Speaker 1 (36:50)
Well, that
and you know, even if you can make a living doing this, which I do believe you about that and we are we are paying our mortgage by farming. mean, I'm not going to say it's it's always been easy, but it's working. And ⁓ but we certainly can't afford a full time CPA on our staff. You we got to of be practical about these things, you know, like where consider that consider the context, you know, what do you need? What what what do you not need? You know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:16)
Exactly. like, there's nothing about farming or having or owning any small scale business that's easy. But I think, you the application of things is really important. And I have to bring this up because I, you brought up crop costing. And I have to say that you specifically were one of the first people I think I ever heard talk about
crop costing when I first started flower farming through the ASCFG. And I'm so thankful for stumbling across that presentation you did because it really changed the trajectory of my business because I was looking for information like that. Like, how do I understand my costs? How do I know if I can actually make money doing this? Like, how do I figure all this out? And so I know that's a little bit of a tangent, but I'm so thankful that you
We're talking about that whenever that was, 10, 12, 15 years ago or so.
Speaker 1 (38:16)
First of all, that just gives me goose bumps. It makes me so happy that, you know, because we never do know when we share. I mean, it's not really our business what someone else will pick it up, pick up and do with it or whether they will or won't. You we just, it's our job to share, right? Kind of like that. So it's wonderful when news like that comes back around where you've really impacted someone else's like trajectory and livelihood. That's just like makes my hair stick up. It's really cool. But I also would say that, you know, you're dealing with farmers and the
the along with the bunny rabbits are these incredibly inventive people. Generation after generation figuring it out with what you've got. And so like, you know, and I'm just I'm a natural farmer, I've come, it comes from my family lines of most people is like a lot of people come from farmer farming a lot of people who live in the city come from farming. And that's why you have some pain and some pain even among people who really aren't doing it, you know, it's like it's just, ⁓ it's in our bones, you know. And for me, it was, ⁓ I just got
I just tried, like you, was trying to figure out how can I stay on my land? And I was just growing everything and I didn't know what was making a profit. And I was like, how can I figure this out? then is it Richard Wiswall, the book, the enterprise? No, no, it's a book he wrote for vegetable farmers.
Speaker 2 (39:28)
It's organic farmers business handbook.
Speaker 1 (39:30)
Yeah, the brand, what is it? Do you remember the name of it?
which is a wonderful book. And I got ahold of it and I said, okay, I can't, this is where the innovation comes in. I see how I can translate these concepts to my gazillion crops. Cause most veg farmers aren't growing 80 or 150 crops, you know? But how can I do this? And it was like, and I figured it out. Once I figured out how it would work, I'm like, well, I can sit on this or I can share it. And that's pretty much how our co-op is. You know, it like, we were like,
this out because we had to figure it out to survive our market because without being able to deliver consistent quality to our customers, we could not survive our business. know, and we say that over and over again, but the customer is not going, that farm sent me some garbage. They're going, I got some garbage at the co-op, you know, so it's the shared brand thing. You've got to, you got to steward that, you don't have to watch it because, ⁓ you know, everyone's livelihoods are intertwined there. And so
Same idea. So we said, okay, well, we have to share in order to have quality. And then so then it's like, okay, the differences between like everybody keeping their information or sharing your information. I just think sharing, well, it's kind of the one thing we haven't all tried yet. Everything else seems not worse. Let's try that. Radical sharing. What an idea. It's the plant world's noddle, right?
Speaker 2 (40:52)
It's not saying, you know, all what's that saying all rising tides lift all the
Speaker 1 (40:58)
yeah, yeah, right. Right. Floats all boats or whatever. Yeah. I would just say, yes, that's true. And sometimes ⁓ it's a little shifty getting up there.
Speaker 2 (41:09)
For sure. But I'm so thankful for all of you sitting down to put all this information together because I've really, you said something earlier that there's about 200 years worth of information in this book and I think that's so true. And I don't think that one particular individual could have put a resource like this all together. And so that's another reason why I think it's just so valuable. And I know I wouldn't be where I am today if
I hadn't learned from all the people who come before me and who came before them. And I just think that as we evolve, I mean, as humans too, but the flower industry in particular, we have to learn from those who come before us. And like, that's why I started this podcast is because I want to share as much as possible with everybody so we can make this work. Because I really want...
to make it work for people. It's worked for me, it's worked for a lot of people that I know. And I'm just really passionate about seeing other people just surpass what I will be able to do. And that's really exciting to me. And so it's really cool to see lots of other people in the industry, know, having that outlook on it as well.
Speaker 1 (42:24)
Yeah, well, I for me, a lot of times I just look at the model of the Netherlands. I mean, it's ⁓ major national industry. It's taken seriously. And you mentioned a while back about, food isn't, flowers aren't food. And some people will make that distinction within agriculture. I believe it's an illusion to make that. There's no reason for the distinction. It all belongs in the cornucopia. It's all part of humans. And it's all intertwined and it all matters.
And a lot of people do both. you know, like I know it's interesting on our farm, we grow a lot of food crops that we sell to floral, which some might find wasteful. But you know, we're just immature pears on the branch or whatever it is that day. We grow so much raspberry for foliage. then we have like right now, we just, how we do it on our farm is I'm just like, okay, we sell to the ornamental trade and all the food is free. So we pick our crew, there's plum trees, there's.
There's so much food out there. And I'm just like, well, that's actually kind of for me, a really cool rebalancing of, I don't know, the plant world is about abundance. I love Robin Wall Kimmerer, her book, The Service Berry and Braiding Sweetgrass, is both of those books. The Service Berry is particularly about how the dollar economy is one of scarcity, but the plant economy is one of abundance. And I think that's really interesting to think about because what fills your heart. And I just love that ability to not always have to count too, you know?
Speaker 2 (43:50)
Yeah, 100%. I love that you brought up your raspberries and pears because we just planted some Joan J. Raspberry plants a couple years ago for the foliage. And most of them, we just leave for my son to eat raspberries because he loves them every day from like spring through summer. He's out there looking for raspberries and it's just such a cool thing.
to have him be involved in the farm in a different way that's not work, that it's more fun. And for me, that's part of what makes this lifestyle worth it, is that you have those kinds of perks. It's such hard work. It's just so much work to do this as a living that you have to have those ties to things that are fun and rewarding outside of just harvesting and selling all the time.
Speaker 1 (44:44)
Absolutely. That's part of the income. That's part of the life that we get by doing this. I agree with you. I mean, that's why I've chosen it.
Speaker 2 (44:52)
Yeah, exactly. So how do you think, how do you envision farmers using the Floral Standards book to sort of like refine or level up their own businesses?
Speaker 1 (45:05)
It's so interesting, you know, I've got my coffee here that's just absolutely full of little posts for the next edition because it's a really a work in progress. ⁓ And ⁓ so we there's a that section that there's a recommended varieties for cutting and it's a constantly evolving thing because the breeders are introducing new people are all innovative farmers are introducing new things. So there's like notes of, you know, things that they pull pages we need to put in there.
And, you know, just like all kinds of things. it is, it is a ever-changing resource, I think, but also, ⁓ I think anyone can go in there and go, Hey, you know, I want to grow some different stuff and just page through it and see what, what direction you want to take it. How do you, how, where do you, what's right? What makes sense for your farm? You know, I'm still, I'm doing that with it. You know, it's like, okay, I got some, some space out there for some crops that weren't pulling their weight. And I'm like, okay, well they're getting solarized right now. I'm like, what are we putting in there? Like, well,
You know, and one of the things that's in that book is ⁓ a lot, of information on crops that can be dried. That's one way of extending the season, you know, is to just, when you grow something that you know that whatever your surplus is, which can be different from year to year, like we're in the heart of globe thistle right now. And it's just like, well, we can only sell so much fresh and we're just picking it and drying it as it comes on. And it's like, okay, it says what stage to harvest it at. that's
great information when now when I'm looking at things, I'm going, which things can I use multiple channels on? When I learn that in there, okay, that's what we'll put in there. It's useful in terms of, for me, terms of evolving your farm. It's also, I think, useful for people who maybe they got started and they started on 10 crops and they want to expand which direction you want to go with it. Also, you said, mentioned a little bit earlier about maybe it's really a professional's tool.
But I've actually found I've done some speaking with, well, there's garden clubs and garden clubs. Some of them, like around here, there's some, I would call them plant scientists, some of these people. They're amazing. ⁓ And we talk about it and like great lot of interest from the group that have their own backyard gardens going just because they wanna know more about those plants and they wanna know how to harvest them well for events or to share what they have. So it's like, it's got a lot of depth to it.
I think, I mean, that's what I found so far. I mean, I'm humble about it because I just like, you know, was useful inside so far it's helped us survive in our co-op. And so I figured, well, then it has to have some use out in the world. That's what we figured as a group. And I think that's, that's kind of showing to be true. And I'm thrilled about it. And I think it's a work in progress. And I think it belongs to the whole industry in terms of, you know, I welcome people to communicate with us, you know, you'll put my link of stuff up here. But if you have ideas or suggestions or something you found,
to be working the way we said in the book or whatever, please let us know because we just want it to be as good as we want it to be as useful as possible. I mean that's the whole idea. It's a crack beyond the the me and mine and I invented this sort of mentality which keeps us all limited. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:14)
For sure. Well, I know I've said this a bunch of times already, but I just think it's an amazing resource, an invaluable tool. I really think it's one of the best flower books on my library shelf. It's incredible. So I recommend anybody, whether you're just starting out or you're an experienced farmer, to go and get yourself a copy of it. ⁓
They can buy a copy on the wholesale growers markets website, is swgm.coop. That stands for ⁓ Seattle Wholesale Growers Market.coop, correct? Okay. Yeah. So just so everybody knows where you can buy the book, I'll put a link in the show notes if anybody is interested in going to check it out and purchase it off the website. ⁓
Speaker 1 (48:51)
Yes.
Speaker 2 (49:02)
Thank you so much for talking with me about this today. It's always a pleasure to talk with you, Diane. And ⁓ could you just tell everyone where they could get in touch with you if they have any feedback or anything they want to talk to you about?
Speaker 1 (49:14)
Oh, for sure. Yeah, just there's a Jell-O-Mode farm website. And if you go on there and hit Contact Us, it'll be my desk that it on. So pretty small world there. So yeah, please do reach out. I love talking to people. You never know where you reach with a podcast, too. It's like you can talk to people from all over the world. It's really fun. So yeah, welcome. I welcome your input. And thank you. It's been a pleasure talking with you. I mean, I could do this all day, but I have a farm out there, too.
Speaker 2 (49:43)
me too. ⁓ Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, Diane. Is there anything else you want to leave our listeners with today? ⁓
Speaker 1 (49:50)
the only thing I would say is that our co-op is growing and expanding. It's 14 years old now and we have ⁓ just a dynamite staff and ⁓ we're going to be doing a rebranding fairly soon. So don't be surprised if you go to find the book and it's going to probably be happening in the next month. ⁓ We'll be changing our name from the Seattle Wholesale Growers Market to the Seattle Growers Market. ⁓ That being because all that extra
acronym. We are open to the public some and it's just like people call it the growers market already. It just seemed the simplification and then there's some of our staff have just been really gung-ho on that we're going have a new logo mark and a new website pretty soon here. if you go looking ⁓ and I think you'll just be re-routed really easily but I just wanted people not to be aware that that's happening. It's exciting and certainly that co-op has been through a lot of different phases over time and ⁓
It's a strapping healthy 14 year old.
Speaker 2 (50:47)
Fantastic. All right. Well, thank you so much, Diane, and we'll see everyone in the next episode next week. Have a good one. Thank you. Bye.
Jenny (50:58)
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Six Figure Flower Farming Podcast. I have a real quick favor to ask you. If you enjoyed this episode or got even a tiny bit of value out of it, please go give it a five -star review on Apple or Spotify now, and of course, only if it's deserved. But I would appreciate it so much.
So please go do me a solid and review the show now. It would mean the world to me. And then I'll see you in the next episode.
