Jenny (00:29)
If you are a farmer who wants to sell to florists or already does sell the florists, or if you are a farmer, forest or a forest, anyone in any of those categories, you are going to want to join me for today's episode. I'm sitting down with Ellen Frost from local color flowers. And she and I are talking about all the things about selling to florists, buying from farmers, challenges, solutions.
Advice pricing just so much good stuff is happening in this episode between farmers and florists. Ellen loves working as a florist, running her business, local color flowers, which she founded in 2008. She only buys local flowers that are grown within a hundred miles of Baltimore, which is incredible. She's built a community of.
total flower friends at her shop over the years through events like an open studio night, book club, weekly drop-ins, design challenges, and more. I've gotten so many cool ideas from her and what she does. And in 2024, Ellen expanded that community online where she has Flower More and she digs deep into the fascinating world of flowers and that online community. And she also offers online classes, a free weekly newsletter and videos on her YouTube channel. She's
also been a member of the association of specialty cut flower growers since she started her business. And she was the first florist to win their prestigious Allen Armitage Leadership Award in 2016. She is just an incredible person, an incredible entrepreneur. And I can't wait for you to hear what she has to say in this episode. So without further ado, let's dive in.
Jenny (02:13)
All right, Ellen, thank you so much for coming on the podcast with me today. I'm so excited to talk with you. Can you just start off by saying hi and telling everyone a little bit about you?
Ellen (02:24)
Yeah, of course. Hello everyone. My name is Ellen Frost. I'm the owner of Local Color Flowers. We are a floral design studio located in Baltimore, Maryland. We are in our 17th year of business and we source all of our flowers locally from farms within 100 miles of Baltimore. And we've done that ever since we started our business back in 2008.
Jenny (02:27)
you
Ellen (02:52)
in addition to being a florist, I also do a bunch of content creation. So I write a weekly newsletter all about flowers and I also host an online community called flower more, which I can tell you more about, which is really fun. And then I teach, online classes, both to farmers who want to sell to florists and to florists who want to buy from farmers. So I kind of do both sides of that, of that teaching situation.
So yeah, that's me.
Jenny (03:23)
You're like the bridge between florists and farmers, and I love that about you. So thank you for doing all that you do.
Ellen (03:30)
I have
always had that role in all my jobs of being a bridge between different groups. So it came very naturally to me to think that I could be a bridge in the beginning between farmers and customers and now between farmers and florists.
Jenny (03:50)
Yeah. I just think that you're such a great advocate for both. it's just incredible. And I love reading all of your articles in the ASCFG quarterly and all that stuff. thanks for all the great information that you put out there. And we have, I have so many questions for you, Ellen. And so I'm really excited to talk about all the different things between farmers and florists and all that. And I am, I am.
Ellen (04:04)
Great.
Thank you so much.
Jenny (04:16)
just always blown away at you and your business model because I think it's so rare for a florist to prioritize and only buy local flowers. Like that is like really, really special and really rare. I'm curious how many farmers you buy from and how on earth you do that.
Ellen (04:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So it is rare. It's much less rare for florists to buy conventionally and buy some local stuff. So that is less rare. And certainly today it is.
but it is still rare for florists to be using all local flowers. They're out there. but it is more, more unique. And so in the big scheme of things, we buy from about 40 farmers throughout the year. So a lot of those farmers are specialty growers who, you know, only grow in the winter or only grow.
peonies or only grow sticks. So it's not like I'm buying from them every single week. So I may buy from them for a season or for a month while they have a certain crop. but my every week growers that I buy from, you know, just about every week throughout the season that they have stuff, there's probably maybe seven or between seven and 10.
that are sort of like my regular, you know, go to growers. And that is a lot still. mean, that's still a lot of, you know, seven, even seven a week is still a lot. But it's not, it's not 40. And some of those are collectives or cooperatives. So, you know, while I'm buying from one person,
that is really a collective with six or seven growers behind it. yeah. So it is complicated and it is, you know, one of the appeals, obviously, of buying from a wholesaler, that's why everybody does it, is because you get everything you need from one place. Even with collect, even with the growing interest in collectives, that is still never gonna be the situation for local flowers. I mean, there's just...
I don't see there ever being a situation where anybody will be able to go to one local grower or one collective to get everything they need. Maybe, but not now. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny (06:58)
I doubt that. I doubt it. I mean, that
would be some growers, some collective to have all the options that a wholesaler does.
Ellen (07:06)
like make cattle, like the Seattle growers
market, like maybe that is a situation where if you were a florist in that region, you may be able to get everything you need because they do year round growing. They have a really diverse mix of growers that are part of co-op. maybe they're, they're definitely the closest to being able to get everything you need in one place. But for the most part,
I'm piecing things together with lots of growers' supply.
Jenny (07:39)
So I think that's a big reason why a lot of florists don't buy from flower farmers, local flower farmers, because it's just like not convenient. And I could totally understand like how difficult it must be trying to piece all that stuff together. So do you have like.
How do you communicate with your farmers? Do they all send you availability lists and you kind of pick and choose what you need? Or do you have a list ahead of time of the product that you need or types of product that you need, and then you ask them for what's available? Or how does that work?
Ellen (08:11)
Yeah. So, all of the growers that I buy from provide some kind of availability list. And so one thing that indicates is that those growers are selling to florists. you know, there's growers that I buy from, like my friend, John McEwen, who was like our first grower that we ever bought from.
He sells at the farmer's market down the street from us. He doesn't sell to florists. When I buy from him, I go to the market and pick stuff out. So he's different because he isn't selling to florists. But the wide majority of people that we buy from are farmers whose jobs are to sell to florists. So they send out an availability list. I buy from that availability list.
A traditional florist or a conventional florist who is used to sourcing conventionally probably does go into a buying situation with a local grower with a list like I need these things. Even maybe if they're more flexible, maybe it's like I need 100 red things. It could be zinnias or dahlias or whatever. It doesn't maybe really matter, but they need 100 red.
For me, it's a little bit different because our business model is so unique in that we, for our wedding work, we don't really promise any sorts of color palette. even if we, I mean, generally, like somebody could say like jewel tones and that for me, that is a very wide range of things.
So I'm not so beholden to a very specific color or a very specific thing. And certainly for our retail stuff, I buy whatever the growers have. And if they have too much of something one week, I'll buy more of that. Like for retail, it's very flexible. For weddings and corporate events, maybe a little less so. For classes, totally flexible. So yeah, everybody sends an availability list.
Jenny (10:21)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen (10:26)
I submit my order and then for the most part those flowers get delivered to me. We don't have, we only have a few growers right now that don't deliver and I only buy from them in certain situations. Like one of them is our winter grower, our main winter grower. So she doesn't deliver. I don't really have any choices. I gotta go pick it up. But for the most part people
Jenny (10:51)
You
Ellen (10:53)
people deliver. again, these are florists, mean, farmers who, you know, have florists as their main customers. So their business is set up to send an availability list, to communicate, to deliver. Unlike maybe a farmer whose main gig is markets or groceries, grocery stores, then trying to fit in florist orders. That's when things get wonky, I think.
Jenny (11:22)
Yeah, for sure. I think that for like a beginning farmer who's trying to find their niche and trying to find, you know, which sales outlets are going to work for best for them. think selling to the florist will be like an amazing one, but you have to really commit to prioritizing your florist and getting them taken care of first. And then maybe like whatever's leftover, you send that through a, another sales outlet. And I think that's really the only way you can, I don't know, develop.
Ellen (11:31)
Yeah.
Thanks.
Ellen (11:51)
that is, think, is something really important that I think there's not enough discussion about for new growers when they are starting out because we have had both farmers and collectives who sell to florists but use florists in just the opposite way that you just said. So
they sell at a market or they sell some other way and then the leftover stuff, then they offer to the florists. Florists are never, that is never gonna be a situation that works for anybody because the florists demands are so high that unless they are the priority, it's gonna make it really difficult for that relationship to work except in emergency situations. And also,
The things that florists want and need are very different often than the things that we'll sell at a market or sell at a grocery store. So even committing early on to like a crop plan that makes sense for a florist. mean, you have to really even begin that far in advance.
Jenny (13:04)
Yeah, that's something I talk about in my course all the time is like, who are you trying to sell to? And then that's going to determine what your crop plan looks like. So I love that you said that. And something else that you said earlier, I want to come back to you is that you said when you design your weddings, you don't really promise very specific color palettes. And that's when I used to do weddings as a farmer. I'm a farmer, not a florist, but we did.
Ellen (13:10)
Totally.
Yep,
sure.
Jenny (13:28)
dabble in weddings for a while. Yeah,
yeah, we don't anymore. It's not our thing, but for a lot of reasons. But we did that as well. like, we don't do very specific color palettes. Like we'll do an idea like you said, jewel tones or soft pastels or whatever.
Ellen (13:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jenny (13:46)
Why do more florists not do that? Like when we went through COVID, I saw a lot of my florists kind of move in that direction because it was a lot harder to source flowers. But it just seems like it's easier for everyone. Like the florist gets to be more creative, gets to really like use their artistic abilities to do what they think is going to look the best. And I can understand how committing to very specific visions from their clients is very valuable to their client.
Ellen (13:55)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Jenny (14:14)
But it just seems like a lot of times florists have the option to leave things more open-ended, which would give them more flexibility in buying from local farmers, but they don't. Can you give us any insight into maybe why that is?
Ellen (14:26)
Yeah.
think that the issue in a lot of situations, one is fear. So I think people are afraid to say no to potential work. So when a client comes in and says, you know, I need this specific shade of red and this specific shade of pink, a lot of times, florists are thinking, I need this work. I want this work. I need this job. And I don't want to
I'm afraid to say to them, can you be more flexible? Can you go with shades of red instead of this specific red? So one I think is fear. Fear that you'll lose out on the job. Fear that, you know, there'll never be another job. You know, I mean, that's just the nature of our work. We're always pitching ourselves. So I think fear is one.
I think the other thing is just that people don't know how to communicate this different model. So florists are sort of, well, like when I was coming up, was like, here's a picture, copy the picture. You like this, copy this. And I think I started that way and because I didn't know any better and, you know, using local stuff, was like,
Okay, it was real obvious that I was gonna get in trouble with that situation every single time. know, show me blue hydrangeas and you want those. And I'm like, okay, I don't really know when blue hydrangeas are available or I've never used them. Like early on, I was like, sure, blue hydrangeas, it's summer. Well, no, that's not how it works. So I think that people don't know how to communicate that
Jenny (16:07)
you
Ellen (16:17)
Creative flexibility. I don't think people know how to assure customers that the product is going to be beautiful and that they are going to love it because it's hard to it's hard to that's that's risky like if you're saying Not only am I not gonna like go with a specific color palette But I'm really not even gonna like look at I mean, maybe I'll look at like your Pinterest board or whatever But I'm not committing to like recreating something
It's hard to have confidence to say, I will make something you love. I understand you. I have listened to you. I've heard your story. I understand what's valuable to you. understand, you you've gathered all of this information and then you say, I'm going to create something for you. I think it's easier to say, here's a picture. I will copy it. You know, that's something that you have to learn.
Jenny (17:11)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen (17:15)
And you also, I think, have to be willing to lose work. know, like you have to be willing to say, here's how our model works. I mean, as I say this, I've said this thousands of times. This is how our model works. I'm not trying to convince you that our model is right for you. There are other florists that will do exactly what you are asking and I'm going to tell you who they are and here is their email. And if you want something different, then
you know, then we are the option. so I think losing that fear, getting more comfortable, communicating your model, and having confidence in your own design skills, to be able to communicate that to the customer. It's And it's so risky because you know, if the, if the customer is like, I hate this and I'm going to write you up on a review site, you're like,
Jenny (18:06)
Yeah, I feel like what
Ellen (18:14)
You know, you're in trouble.
Jenny (18:17)
Right. I think that's something that you do really well and that a lot of florists that I feel are really successful, they do a really good job of putting together a portfolio and marketing themselves ahead of time with their very specific style. And like for you, your style is all local flowers or for another florist, might be something different, but they really market.
Ellen (18:42)
Mm.
Jenny (18:43)
and just show pictures of this is our style, this is our style. So then you're going to be attracting people who like that style. And so I feel like that's something that you're really good at. And any like farmer, farmer florist that's listening to this can take a lot of lessons from you in that regard.
Ellen (18:48)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,
I think you're right. And that did take time, right? But in the beginning, I mean, in one way, you're like, I'll do whatever. I'm not really sure my style. I'm not, you you're you're learning. But the more I mean, certainly for us with local stuff, because every year
you know, the cycle is sort of the same. The more we banged content and the more we had portfolio photos and the more we could show like this is our work. I think the other thing was like, you know, having testimonials of people who said, I wasn't sure about this model and it was the best choice I made, you know, or my mom wasn't sure and I was worried because I convinced her to go with it and it was awesome.
so I think having those, having that, but you're right, attracting the right customer, like your people, like we always talk about our flower people, like there are people who are not our customers. There are people who are not our flower people. so it's doing everything we can to attract the right customer for us and not pressuring somebody because they'll always end up being the wrong customer then.
Jenny (20:16)
Yeah, I love that. let's change gears a little bit here because I think a lot of people listening are probably farmers or like farmer florists who kind of dabble in both floristry worlds and farming. And a lot of these growers are looking to sell to florists. And I want to just talk about pricing because I know a lot of florists.
Ellen (20:19)
Yeah.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Jenny (20:41)
don't want to buy from flower farmers because a lot of times our product can be viewed as more expensive than what they can get from the wholesaler. But all you do is buy local flowers. So you can you tell us a little bit more about what you think about that and how that works in your world?
Ellen (20:57)
Yeah.
I think for farmers thinking about pricing and thinking about a product that they're offering to a florist in a lot of cases, florists, conventional florists that source conventionally can get your product cheaper. I mean, that's just the reality, right? Yes. You sell sunflowers for a dollar 50. I can get them at the wholesaler for 80 cents.
Jenny (21:18)
They can and will.
Ellen (21:27)
Okay, that's great. But those are florists, and there's a lot of them out there, whose priority, number one priority, is price. So not all florists, although everybody is obviously concerned about price, every florist's number one priority is not price. Some they are, but some they aren't. And for some, like us,
Our priority is providing one, a high quality flower to our customers. So for us, quality beats price in terms of what we value because our customer values quality. So if our customer valued, you know, cheap flowers, then we would be buying cheap flowers. You know, like that's the florist mentality. So
Our customers value high quality. So I'm looking for high quality. I'm willing to pay for it. Our customers value unique flowers that are not the flowers you get at the grocery store that are flowers that they can put on their Instagram and say, look at these amazing peonies or look at this tuberose or look at this green dot or look at this unique thing that nobody else has that I have.
because I got it from this cool local place. So our customers value unique, interesting things. So I am going to seek those things out from a local grower and I'm willing to pay for it. I'm also willing to pay for the service and the relationship. So I'm big on customer service. I'm big on relationships and I'm willing to pay more.
for those things. And I'm not, this is not just me as like the unique person who buys local. There are lots of florists out there who are retail florists, are wedding florists, who value other things besides just the cheapest flower. The catch is trying to find them and to build relationships with those people. They're out there. I'm here to tell you they're out there.
Jenny (23:45)
You
Ellen (23:52)
It's just that you have to find them because anytime you go to a florist whose number one priority is the cheapest product, you will not win. You will never be able to compete on price. The things you can compete on are your quality, your unique varieties, your story, your relationships, your customer service, your flexibility.
Those are the things that you can compete on. You cannot, you can't compete on price. I mean, there's just, you know.
You're just never going to be able to.
Jenny (24:31)
The,
yeah, I mean, the fact is that us as local flower farmers, we're competing with a global market. So, you know, we have our own little niche in the flower world, but it's just impossible to compete with people in Ecuador who grow thousands of acres of one type of flower. So totally different businesses, different scale and everything. And I think that we all have, there's room for all of us. There's, you know, exactly.
Ellen (24:39)
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah. And I think the other
thing for beginner farmers who are for farmers who are beginning to think about selling to florists. One big thing that I always like, teach a small class called preparing to sell to florists. And the first thing I always say to people is that florists are just like farmers. Florists are not all the same. We are a huge industry.
We have different business models. So some people may only do funerals. Some people may only do retail. Some people may only do weddings. Maybe they do a mix of those things. And that is going to determine the type of things that they need for their business. So you can be a farmer who's like, I have the best lyceanthus and I
go pitch it and the florist says they don't want it and I go in the car and I cry because honestly, I mean that happens, right? Like it is really hard. And I think that we can, we can nip that in the bud by before we do any try to pitch to a florist is to really understand their business model. So that means, you know, look at their website, check all their social media, start, go to their shop.
Jenny (26:01)
yeah.
Ellen (26:23)
Go to their, you know, wherever they go. Learn as much, read their reviews on WeddingWire. Learn as much as you can about them so that you can be prepared. You can be like, I have the best Lysianthus and I've never seen any picture of this florist use Lysianthus. That indicates that they probably don't want or need your Lysianthus. If you see all they use is peonies,
Well then maybe during peony season you can make a pitch. But like understanding the florist I think will reduce a lot of that rejection early on because you just, it's like you're setting yourself up for failure for trying to sell something that they just will never want or never need. Even though it might be the absolute best thing you've ever grown and you're so proud of it and you feel so good about it, they have a different model. They just.
It would be like somebody coming to you and saying, have the best tractor loader that I've ever had and I need to sell it to you. And you're like, I don't use a tractor. Like it might be awesome, but I don't use a tractor. You know what I mean? So it's like the same kind of thing. A floor is like, don't need, I don't use that.
Jenny (27:42)
Yeah, that's such great advice. I quick side story. When I first started trying to sell flowers to florists a million years ago, the first place I ever went to, I had the most beautiful snapdragons are like
four feet tall, huge, like literally most beautiful things ever, brought them to just like the local place down the street. And I wanted to sell them for a dollar a stem. And she's like, well, they're really beautiful. They're most beautiful ones I've ever seen, but your price is way too high. And I was like, I'm sorry, I can't do any less. And I was heartbroken. I went, I literally cried in my car. But then over time, I found all these amazing florists to work with that had a totally different vibe, a totally different aesthetic.
Ellen (27:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jenny (28:26)
and had a great relationship with them. And so it's okay if
Ellen (28:30)
Right.
Jenny (28:31)
you find someone and it's just like, you're not a good match. You just keep trying to find somebody who is. Yeah.
Ellen (28:34)
Yeah, 100%. I mean,
it's 100 % the truth. I mean, you just have to find your people. And that sometimes takes a long time. And, you know, I'm not saying like, do it indefinitely, keep trying indefinitely, but it is something that does not happen overnight. I mean, like any relationship, whether it's in business or personal relationships, farmer-florist relationships,
Jenny (28:46)
Thank you.
Ellen (29:03)
really good ones take a long time. And they require constant maintenance, right? So like our growers I've been buying from for 15 years, we still have, you know, twice yearly meetings, we still check in, we still have challenges, we still, you know, have to fix problems. Like, it really does just require a lot of work to make those relationships work. But when they do, they're
life-changing. mean, they're business-changing.
Jenny (29:35)
Yeah. And those kinds of relationships can be win-win for the florist and the farmer. And that's, think what your whole business model is all about really exemplifies that. Yeah. So something else that I'm curious about is a lot of farmers in different areas, you know, we try to sell our flowers where people value them the most. And in some cases, florists will value certain flowers, even more than retail markets. So.
Ellen (29:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
Hmm?
Jenny (30:05)
An example of this that comes to mind is like Cosmos, for example, like for me personally, I could really never sell them at the farmer's market. Like they weren't like a big seller. Nobody really liked them, but florists couldn't really get them through the wholesaler or if they did, they were complete garbage. And so they loved my Cosmos. And so I got a better price selling to them than I ever would selling retail.
Ellen (30:24)
Yeah.
Jenny (30:26)
So obviously farmers are going to go where they can kind of get the best price, but how can farmers sell to florists to ensure that not only they're winning, but the florist is also going to be winning and able to price so they can earn a profit on those flowers as well. What should a farmer understand about that?
Ellen (30:40)
Yeah.
I think the first thing is, is you're absolutely right. There are, there are products that a florist will pay more for than a retail customer will because they can't get it from a wholesaler and, or they just love it and want it and think it's like the magic things that's going to make their design like really pop this week. You know, so yes, that is the case. However, let's start from the farmer side. It's like,
And this is really like, this is really from my perspective, the truth. If you are, if you are a farmer and you're thinking I have all these products and this product, I can get the most from the florist. So I'm going to offer that to the florist, but I can get these other, I can take all these other flowers to market and I can get a higher price for those. So in the, in the win-win building relationships with a florist,
It's gonna be challenging for the florist to only buy this one crop from you, not just knowing that you have other flowers that you're not offering them, but saying, without saying, I value the highest price over this relationship. So I'm saying, you know, I'm gonna go take these crops, one to here, one to here, one to here, I'm gonna like divide them up and get the highest price.
for them. It's like the same thing as like a florist saying, I'm going to just take the cheapest price. So I think it can work temporarily. I think it can work once in a while with a single crop, but that is not how you build relationships. And that I think is on the flip side, the same with the florist in a situation where they may say,
I could get this cheaper at the wholesaler, but I'm going to buy it from you a little more expensive because we're in a relationship and I value our relationship and I'm going to not just buy the one product from you that I want, I'm going to buy these other things too. So it's a little bit of like a different...
Jenny (32:57)
Right.
Ellen (33:14)
especially in like a capitalist like economy where it is just like, I always say like a farmer florist relationship that works really well is not just about buying and selling. It's about both of us being successful in our businesses. And so then the other thing like you were saying about, you know, how can you ensure that the florist then also makes a profit? I think the farmers need to understand
Jenny (33:17)
You
Ellen (33:43)
how florists do pricing, right? So if you don't know how a florist prices and you are offering say, I don't know, some like very expensive, a great example, winter tulips, you have done, winter tulips are really popular right now. You've done all this work, you've done all this stuff and you're offering winter tulips at $2 a stem because it did take you a lot of time and a lot of heat and a lot of energy and a lot of.
Jenny (33:46)
Yes.
Ellen (34:13)
things to get to that $2 system. So for florists, the standard way of florist prices is with a three times markup. So that means that for a $2 tulip, I have to sell it at $6 to make any profit. Because the way a three times markup works is that a third of it goes to buying the flower. So that's the $2. A third of it goes to
all of your overheads, so your rent, your utilities, your insurance. So if I charge $4, I'm covering the cost of the flower and I'm covering the cost of my overhead with no profit. And lots of people do that. I have done it in certain situations too. But in order to make any profit, which means pay myself, I have to charge $6. So for a farmer, it's good to understand that because
because it just matters that a florist is not going to be able to sell that tulip for $6. I mean, in lots of cases. So it kind of goes back to understanding who your florist is and who their customers are. Because if you're selling to like a high end, you know, a luxury wedding florist, then sure, $2 a stem, whatever, you know, that just goes in a bucket of giant budgets.
You know, that's no problem. But if you're just selling to like, no, I mean, you're selling to a regular wedding florist or a wedding retail florist. I think it's just important to understand that. And then the hard part is, and you talk about this a lot is, okay, maybe that crop is not the right fit for me. Maybe that, maybe I cannot be profitable on this crop because I can't command the price that I need.
Jenny (35:42)
That's not typical.
Ellen (36:08)
and I can't find a florist who will pay it and they can't find a customer who will pay it. And so those decisions are hard because like you say a lot, like some of what farmers grow does come from an emotional place. Like I like this, I wanna grow it. I mean, this is the same for me. Like I like that product, I wanna buy it, I wanna design with it, you know. However,
Jenny (36:14)
Yes.
Ellen (36:36)
The reality is, is that not everything we like to grow makes financial sense. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny (36:43)
Yeah, 100%. I feel like I talk about that all the time.
And I just want to echo what you said about really understanding the industry. Like for people who are just starting out, it's kind of hard because I know for me, I didn't know anything about florists or floristry when I first started farming. But as I started talking to florists and learning about the industry, I felt that I had to do weddings or at least learn about.
Ellen (36:59)
Yeah.
Jenny (37:11)
weddings before I sold to wedding florists to really grasp like what they were doing with this flower, like how their business worked. And so I'm sure that your class that you teach would be a great jumping off point for somebody to start learning that stuff, but it helps you to understand your customers so much. And so you can both work together just so much more easily.
Ellen (37:12)
Okay.
my God.
And we
have a hundred percent. even if you're not, I think even for any sort of floristry, like even if it's not wedding floristry, if it's retail, we had for years, both with a couple of farmers around here with Laura Beth from Butterbee Farm and from Maya from Helen Homestead, even from Two Boots, we've done this, is we've done employee exchanges so that one of our designers goes and works at the farm for a week and one of their
Jenny (37:43)
Yeah, yeah.
Ellen (38:02)
farmers comes and works at the shop for a week. So everybody starts to understand all the pieces of the puzzle. that, and we, this happens all, we actually, so Maya and I, Helen Homestead and I actually share an employee currently, like a regular employee year round. And so a lot of times Brittany, our shared employee will be like at the farm and she'll be like, I know that this is,
Jenny (38:09)
I love that.
Ellen (38:31)
long enough stem wise for something Ellen's going to use this week, or Ellen won't use that this short because I know she needs it to be this tall. So the more you can sort of put yourself in the other person's shoes, and this is sort of going back to the win-win, is like, think about these relationships as like we're on the same team. And if we all understand each other better,
we'll be able to sell more flowers overall. If you understand me as a florist better, you can sell more stuff. If I understand you better, I'll be buying more stuff. And it's out of the ordinary to do these kinds of things, I understand. this is not a normal way of thinking, but I also feel like we just made it up. So it's not like, if I can make it up, you can make it up. Like, you can do it too. You can just, you know.
Jenny (39:14)
100 %
Ellen (39:29)
And it maybe it doesn't have to be like an employee exchange, but maybe it's like having a day at the farm where florists can come and see how you work, see how you harvest, see the process. same with, you could just ask a florist, like could our team come visit someday? Like on a slow day, could we see how it works? So you just can have more perspective on each other's sort of business models.
Jenny (39:39)
Yes.
Yeah, I love that so much. That's amazing. feel like any farmer approaching a florist should just give them your business card and be like, check out this lady. Check out Ellen Frost. Yeah, I'm sure it has. And I think that you've taken on.
Ellen (40:02)
Yeah
It's taken a long time to get here.
Jenny (40:14)
Something that is very challenging to do and that farmers need to understand that it's challenging for florists to do this and to have some empathy that florists are business owners too, just like us. And we're just all trying to like find our place in the world and survive. Yes.
Ellen (40:21)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I think on both ends, like there is perspective
on both sides. Like when a farmer, you know, when there's a weather issue, when there's, you know, I mean, we have lots of times when farmers are like, well, it's 80 degrees and every single tulip came on all at once. Can you take a thousand tulips this week? You know, understanding both and having empathy for both and being willing to help out with both, you know, like
Yes, I will take a thousand tulips and I will figure out how to have a tulip sale or, you know, whatever, or, I think just both on both sides, trying to understand how the other is working.
Jenny (41:11)
Yeah, you're definitely a unique florist, Ellen. So I'm curious about what are some challenges that you have had or currently have working with farmers and how do you think that those could be solved? Like if someone's listening and they could be like the perfect farmer for a florist, like what are some challenges they should be aware of?
Ellen (41:13)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I think they're in like categories. you know, the easier ones to deal with maybe are quality issues. you know, quality issues are a common problem. And I'm not saying that our growers don't grow high quality stuff. They do. But there's there can always be a quality issue sometime. So.
Dealing with quality issues, think for us, one, we always want to give feedback. We're not gonna be, it's not like buying from a wholesaler. Like a lot of growers, or a lot of florists who buy from a wholesaler, there's a quality issue. They throw the product in the trash. They ask for credit. That's all, you know. Or maybe they don't even ask for credit because they're like, it's a pain. It's not, it's one bunch. It's two bunches, you know, no big deal. But for us,
We want to give that feedback because one, we are always afraid that if we have the problem and we're like nice, there might be a horse out there that gets the bad quality product. And then that's the end of the relationship. Like they don't give it another chance. And so one, we want to just tip the farmer off like, there's these stored tulips that you sold me are moldy inside. And so when they open.
Jenny (42:38)
You
Ellen (42:57)
they're moldy and they're gonna go open in all these florist shops. So have a plan, be prepared.
Jenny (43:05)
I would
want that feedback if I was selling to you. I would appreciate that.
Ellen (43:09)
Right. Yeah,
so we try to keep that in mind, even though that can be like a challenging, know, like nobody wants to hear that. you know, it also for the florist, for me, I'm thinking we had had a tulip issue like this before. And it also means, well, I'll just tell you, this tulip issue happened like Mother's Day week.
So, you know, farmers are trying to hold tulips in the cooler so that they can have stuff to sell for Mother's Day. And we ordered like a thousand tulips. They all came in moldy. It was a huge, it was like hugely impactful to our Mother's Day orders, but also that farmer had sent these out to other florists. So I was worried about that. but also like, so it's like the busiest week of the year. And now I have to take time out of my.
Jenny (43:38)
Course.
Ellen (44:07)
working to take photos, take videos, call the farmer, have conversations. So I want to do that. But that can be a challenge just in itself, like having the time and the effort to put into, why did that happen? What could you have done differently? How can we fix it in the future? So quality issues are an issue.
For the most part, anytime we've had a quality issue and shared that with the farmer, of course, you know, I think a good response from the farmer is, mean, the best responses from my point of view are, I'm sorry, here's a credit. Can I give you something as a, you know, fill in? you need something else? Is there some way I can help you? Because the credit is good.
And the credit is needed. Obviously I'm not going to pay for something that didn't come in right. But the other thing is right now I'm in mother's day and I am now without a thousand flowers. So if somebody could say, I have, I don't know, 10 bunches of hyacinth. I mean, whatever, just like offer something, some way to help. That's So quality issues, I mean, they're uncomfortable for everybody, but they're not like the thing that's going to break a relationship unless
it's a consistent problem. Like every week there's a quality issue, then you're like, okay, well, it's just not good quality product. So the quality issues. And then I think there's also just like general communication issues, you know, like any relationship. Anytime it's hard for farmers and florists to communicate with each other, whether that be
Jenny (45:33)
You're a jerk about it.
Ellen (46:02)
one or the other is not responding quickly enough because this work is fast paced. So it's like if I put in an order by emailing you and then I don't hear back from you for five days, whether or not that order is confirmed or you know, whatever, then I'm like, okay, I'm frantic, I'm nervous, I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm looking for other sources of flowers, I'm texting you, you know, like that kind of stuff.
So it's good sort of in the beginning to set some relationship, I don't know, boundaries, like, how do we do things? know, how do we communicate? So that I feel like can also be like fixed in the early stages where you're like, it's better for me if you don't Instagram message me or order because I'm not gonna see that. So let's just agree to email or let's just agree to text or whatever.
Jenny (46:40)
Expectations.
Ellen (47:01)
I think the more challenging problems that come up or challenges that come up between farmers and florists is,
is like competition issues because a lot of farmers are also doing forestry. So, you know, there's some farmer florist stuff and even more now there's florists that are also doing some growing. So then it's like, how do we manage that? And we have, you know, we've had
Jenny (47:17)
Hmm.
Ellen (47:39)
situations like that over the years. think one that I use as an example, I have used as an example before is with a grower who was like a main grower for us. So we were buying from them every week and they had an opportunity to sell at the farmer's market, which was like two doors down from our shop. At the same time, the shop is open. So it was like the same product being sold at our shop and at the market.
but at our shop with a three times markup. So of course, nobody's going to buy the product at a three times markup if they can get it at the market for much cheaper. So what I, I mean, you know, so I had an uncomfortably have a conversation about this, which was to say, I want to keep buying from you, but if nobody buys my products, I don't need to buy from them. Like it,
Jenny (48:36)
And you can't.
Ellen (48:39)
I, it was like an uncomfortable situation because I was kind of like, you have to choose. If you want to sell at the market, that's fine. But I am going to have to buy less from you because I can't sell it. Or you can prioritize me over the market. And my, my sort of side of this was
I will commit to buying more. If you come to me on Friday and say, I've got a bunch of stuff left over, normally I would take it to the market to try to sell it. I'm going to try to pick up some of that slack. So that's the win-win. Like I'm trying to help you, you're trying to help me, we're trying to stay in relationship. And that's what we ended up doing. The farmer said, I don't really want to deal with the market. If you can buy more, that's great.
But I think you're seeing more and more of that where a farmer is also doing weddings and now they're in direct competition with their customer for weddings. So it goes back to the same thing. Like if you get the wedding, that's great. If you want to do weddings, do them, but I can't buy from you because I don't have any weddings now. Like, you know what I mean? So I think there is like more and more, I think I see situations like that where it's,
Jenny (49:58)
You
Ellen (50:07)
And I'm not even saying like stay in your lane. I'm not necessarily like saying that that's what I think people should do, but I think it does make for harder conversations between farmers and florists. I think that's probably the most challenging where you have to like, you know, have those kinds of harder business conversations.
Jenny (50:31)
Yeah. And it sounds like a lot of things I'm hearing coming from you during this conversation is just really prioritizing your relationship with each other and not trying to like, can totally understand the appeal of like going to the farmer's market and try to sell some more stuff. But another piece of that.
Ellen (50:40)
Yeah.
Jenny (50:50)
From me as a farmer, when I hear that I'm like, well, that farmer should be charging a lot more at the farmer's market. They should be charging retail prices at the farmer's market, which gets into this whole other thing with the whole other thing. And so it's like, you really have to prioritize where you're going to try to move your product and what relationships you really want to have. it with.
Ellen (50:55)
Right.
That's different, right? That's a whole different.
Jenny (51:12)
farmer's market customers, or is it with your florists and really trying to carve out a niche where it's going to, you're not going to have like clashing things together. And that's a big, one of the big reasons why, you know, when I first started, had it all. tried to do everything is that's just what you do.
Ellen (51:13)
Yep.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jenny (51:30)
But I was, I realized after time that I was kind of in a situation like that, where, I mean, I was selling really high prices at our farmer's market, but I was also selling to our florist customers for like not that much less. And I was like, I have to make a decision here. And so we don't really sell the florist anymore and we don't do any wedding work and it all worked out fine. And, and it was sad not to work with them as much because they were great people and everything, but like we just had more demand in other places.
Ellen (51:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny (52:00)
And so I think all the challenges that you're talking about are really important to talk about so farmers can understand how this all works and how uncomfortable things can get and how we can all find success together.
Ellen (52:06)
Mm-hmm.
Totally. Yeah. And like
I said, if you, whether you're a farmer or a florist, if you go into it with the mindset that we're like not adversaries, that we're on the same team, then I think those hard conversations are made easier. Cause we, you know, we both want the other to succeed. and so just figuring out what that looks like, you know, I think that's made easier. Yeah.
Jenny (52:42)
Yeah, I love that.
So some challenges and frustrations that I've had quite a, you know, I love selling to florist when I did sell them, but I also had a lot of challenges and frustrations, you know, a few of them being some of them were.
Ellen (52:53)
Okay.
Jenny (52:59)
Only wedding forests and didn't have traditional floral shops. So those particular clients of mine would have a huge wedding and they would buy thousands of dollars of product one week and then nothing for two weeks, which is just like the way that their business ran, which was really hard as a farmer to manage. Like, well, I don't know when you're going to need stuff. And can you tell me ahead? It's, know, whatever a whole bunch of things.
Ellen (53:00)
Yeah.
at
Yeah.
Totally.
Yep.
Jenny (53:24)
Flores really not understanding flower seasonality. Trying to, like, I am shocked at how many flores know absolutely nothing about flowers. Nothing. I'm like, this is your job. Yes. Shocking. Yeah. And then, you know.
Ellen (53:29)
Yes.
Nothing. Literally nothing. Yes, it is. Yes, I'm totally with you there.
Jenny (53:48)
set, trying to set boundaries where we're like, only communicate via email or during a business hours, but then I'd be getting texts waking me up at 11 o'clock at night because their wholesale order came in and all the roses were moldy. And now it's an emergency that I have to fix for them. And so, you know, obviously a lot of these issues just stem from communication and education and really trying to understand each other, which I think we've talked about a lot.
Ellen (53:56)
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jenny (54:17)
But what can be done for a farmer to help florists understand some of the unique challenges that we as farmers face and that we're not like a wholesaler? We can't just go pluck out,
Ellen (54:26)
Yeah. Right.
Jenny (54:29)
you know, whatever from our giant warehouse and, help make the, a better, like more reliable experience for both of us. So what can farmers do?
Ellen (54:33)
Totally.
Yeah.
I think that unfortunately, it does come down. There is a lot of responsibility on the farmers in these situations to provide the education. Because you're right, florists don't know a lot. So I have like another, like my online classes, I have a class for farmers and I have a class for florists and
Jenny (55:00)
about flowers.
Ellen (55:07)
The class for florists, part of that is trying to educate them on how farmers work, how seasonality works, how you can learn about these things on your own. So like you get an availability list and there's three things on there that you've never heard of. Okay, here's how you learn about them. Buy them, use them, practice with them, figure them out.
Okay, now you've added three flowers to your sort of encyclopedia of flowers. That's without the farmer having to educate you on that. However, not all florists are gonna be proactive in that way. And so it does, I think, come down to the farmers sort of hand holding the florist on a lot of these issues. like seasonality, think is a huge one because
most florists that farmers are selling to are not buying the majority of their stuff locally. So when you buy from a wholesaler, seasonality is not really an issue. You can get most things anytime. so teaching florists about seasonality can look like a bunch of things. Like it can look like sending a list at the beginning of the year by month.
and say, these are the things that we grow and this is generally when they're available. So, okay, so for florists who's planning, they can be like, okay, I generally see that peonies are May through June. Okay, so I might still be weird and ask you for them in October, but you could just say then, no, those are only available in May and June.
So giving them some sort of reference point at the beginning of the year to look at throughout the year. You could then do that, like I see Jenny, like my friend Jenny Love, who started a collective maybe two years ago. I see now that she is doing like monthly lists of those. you know, now saying, okay, I've given you the annual list.
on the first of the month, I'm gonna say, April, here's what we're growing in April. And of course, some stuff's gonna be beginning of April, some stuff's gonna be the end, but at least the florist has like a general sense of, okay, I don't see dahlias on there, so I'm not hopefully gonna ask for dahlias in April. you know, like, right. But every time it is just like educating them on... The other thing is...
Jenny (57:47)
Maybe.
Ellen (57:55)
which I've seen, like Laura Beth does this really well on her availability list. So the availability list to me is like the teaching tool. is like, it is the way for a farmer without having to talk to everybody to communicate stuff to the forest. And so on the availability list, Laura Beth has this great thing. So there's like a cover email and then the list is like in air table. But on that cover email, she'll say,
starting this week. So she'll list the flowers that are there for the first week. Then she'll say ongoing. So things that have been on the list that are still going. Or last week for these things. So that the florist then can start to say, if they're being diligent, you know, like, I see that mock orange is really like a one to two week only thing.
So now I remember for next year that mock orange is not a thing that's available like tulips for six months, it's available for one week. And if I want it, I better just tell them, hey, when the mock orange comes, want it. So using that availability list is a way to educate, think is a huge piece. And really, because I'm kind of in the same role as the farmers in this way,
I just never knew how much education was gonna go along with this job because, right, mean, it's not like even people don't know what seasonality is for their food, but at least they have a little bit more sense, like tomatoes are in the summer. Like for flowers, we're so disconnected from flowers that they know people just don't know. And so there is just like a lot of
Jenny (59:36)
Right.
Hahaha
So disconnected.
Ellen (59:52)
education that has to be done, at least for seasonality. The other issues like florists buying some weeks and not buying other weeks, I know it is like maddening. It is maddening. And that's not even just wedding florists, because we had a situation like a long time ago where Bob Wollum, like early on, maybe or second year or third year in business, we had been buying from him every week. And then like our schedule was just like,
every week, every week, every week. And then in the summer we didn't have any work. Like, you know, in Baltimore it's really hot, nobody gets married, everybody goes away. So then I just like stopped buying from him and then figured, okay, I'll just start up again when I need stuff. And he was like, after like two or three weeks, like called me and he's like, what is happening? Like you just like fell off the earth. And I was like, I didn't know I should tell you that. Like I didn't know.
Jenny (1:00:29)
Mm-hmm.
Ellen (1:00:50)
I didn't understand that you were like relying on me or that you, you know, were planning, you know, I just didn't know. I had never had that situation. So I was like, okay, I only need to hear that once to now be like, okay, farmer, here's the list of dates that I have weddings here. You know, we do this in the winter, in our winter meetings. Here's the dates I have weddings. Here's the colors of those weddings. Here are, you know, here's everything I can tell you that I know now.
Jenny (1:01:16)
that's amazing.
Ellen (1:01:21)
so that at least you can plan. Or I'm planning a month long vacation in the summer, so I'm not gonna be around. So again, that like good communication, let's meet in the winter, let's make a plan so that the farmer's not in like the dark about like what's happening. And then I think it is, if a farmer is gonna commit to selling to florists, I think they need...
to diversify either their florist customers, like some retail and some weddings, or they have to have a volume of a lot of wedding florists, you know, more than three, or some low number that is gonna really impact like, there's gonna be weeks when nobody's buying anything. So if you have, you know, 20 people on your list, it's a little more likely that somebody is gonna have a wedding every week.
So diversifying that way or having a few really good wedding customers and then having three or four good retail customers who are going to buy retail stuff every week. I think both of those can help mitigate some of that like, my God, I have Lysianthus coming out the ears and nobody did this week. I mean, that's very stressful. Yeah.
Jenny (1:02:40)
You
Yeah. Well,
I will say that I think that Ellen, are a really unique florist and that for, in my experience as a farmer, it has taken an incredible amount of education, reminders and, like all very like gentle, you know, nice reminders, but, being like very empathetic that like florists are.
Ellen (1:03:01)
Totally. Yeah.
Jenny (1:03:10)
This might be new to a lot of the florists that you might be selling to and to like really do a lot of handholding, provide a lot of resources for them to help help them understand. And I think if you are going to be selling to florists a lot, understand that Ellen is very unique in her approach to farmers. but tell all your florists to go take her class about buying from farmers. mean, honest to God, if I had, how long have you been teaching that class?
Ellen (1:03:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
I think like six years, five or six years.
Jenny (1:03:42)
Yeah. If you had that class and I had known about it when I was selling to florist law, would have given it to, I would have gifted it to every single one of them. like, bought you this class. Please watch it over the winter and then come to me with any questions. Like maybe that is a really good option for farmers who have a relationship with a florist, but want to deepen it or, know, get some more out of that. Cool. Awesome. Well, Ellen, we could literally chat for hours about this. Like I know that we could, but.
Ellen (1:03:50)
Just like that.
Totally.
Bye.
Jenny (1:04:12)
I just want to say thank you so much for being such an advocate for local flowers and doing so much work on, you know, bridging this gap between farmers and florists. just think what you do is amazing. So could you just tell the listeners where they can learn more about you, what you teach, you know, what you do and how they can get in contact with you.
Ellen (1:04:30)
Yeah,
for sure. So the website is Ellenfrost.com. Easy peasy. On there, we've got all kinds of, you can sign up for the newsletter, which comes out weekly, which is full of all kinds of flower information. We also have tons of free resources on there. You can find us on YouTube at Ellen Frost on YouTube, and then you can check out Flower More, which is our online community, which is super fun and everybody should join.
Jenny (1:05:00)
Awesome.
Give her a shout out if you have any questions about selling to florists or maybe buying from farmers otherwise. Otherwise, Ellen, thank you so much for coming on the show. And we'll talk to everyone next time. All right, bye.
Ellen (1:05:05)
Yep. Great job.
Thanks. All right, take care.
